The Glade 4.0

Totally breezed over the very first line of the GZ 911 call transcript. Reason enough for his suspicion, IMO.



Also this



GZ's reason for suspicion seem to far more likely due to what has transpired in this area in the past and wanting to prevent further burglaries, not the fact that there is a black guy in his neighborhood on his watch.

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

Zimmerman is part Hispanic and one eighth black himself.

Zimmerman didn't have problems with blacks as he tutored them of his own voliton.

In the unedited version of the 911 tape Zimmerman doesn't bring up race until asked and said he was acting suspicious. If I were a DA and had him on the stand I'd ask him to elaborate sure.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

And again, none of the concerns about the neighborhood watch regulations, him following Martin, or even whether he was armed pertain to if he actually provoked the use of force. A provocation, legally speaking, means something you were not entirely within your rights to do in the first place. If you go into the same bar with your ex-wife's boyfriend, that is not a "provocation" legally no matter how provocative he may personally find it. If you go up and start giving him a hard time and don't leave him alone when he tells you to, then you're provoking him because you don't have any right to stand there and harass someone, certain people's fantasies regarding the First Amendment notwithstanding.

Furthermore, since the physical evidence speaks to Zimmerman being on the ground with Martin atop him, that in and of itself makes any question of "reasonably believed he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and he had exhausted every other reasonable means of escape" already moot. Even if he did provoke the use of force, having someone sitting on top of him means he could not escape unless there's some evidence Zimmerman was a skilled ground fighter, well practiced in techniques for escaping an opponent in his mount - and by "well practiced" I mean actually had experience, at minimum in a sparring setting, of trying to get someone off of him who was trying not to be gotten off. This is not easy to do even if you do have experience and proper training, and I'll thank you in advance not to come up with reasons why it should be no problem.

If you want to show that Zimmerman provoked Martin, you need to actually show something that speaks to that, not just bring up endless peripheral circumstances and then talk about how they "might have" provoked Martin.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Well as it stands, there is zero evidence to prove that this is the case, according to the investigator (he admitted in court they didn't know who started the confrontation)...but even if Zimmerman is the aggressor, the wounds on the back of his head and eyewitness testimony should be enough to support his story that he was pinned down and unable to escape, meaning he can still claim self defense.

There's just way too much doubt and not enough evidence to think the prosecution has a chance in hell of being able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he didn't act in self defense.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/dershowitz-n ... kill-them/



Also...



I have this exact jacket...

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Trayvon Martin in 7-11 - surveillance video

Further to the point of racial profiling, in this video in a well-lit 7-11 and with the large all-covering hoodie TM was wearing it is tough to tell that he is black. Until he takes his hands out to pay for his purchase, I'd be hard pressed to definitively identify that individual as black, yet there are those that are certain that GZ was able to identify TM's race on a dark, rainy night at distance.

Is it unreasonable to believe that GZ had no idea the race of the person he was following until pressed for that information by the dispatcher, but I guess that doesn't make for a good news story. The racist angle of this story has been blown so far out of proportion it isn't even funny.

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

There is such thing as "lack of objectively suspicious activity". Martin was A) walking around slowly, in the rain B) in a gated community he didn't live in and C) in an area where there had been recent burglaries. All of those are objective facts. What you're saying is that the circumstances as they appear to you are not enough that they meet your personal criteria for "suspicious".

Zimmerman does not need a "get out of jail free" card; he can have been suspicious of Martin for any reason he wanted to. Being suspicious of him is something Zimmerman is within his rights to do and even following him is. It is not on Zimmerman to demonstrate that his suspicion is reasonable; he is not a police officer and was not making a Terry Stop. You cannot shift the burden of proof to the defense by just saying "well, the basic facts suggest that there was no suspicious behavior". Aside from the fact that the "basic facts" are not limited to "he was walking down the street at 7:00 p.m." the burden is on the prosecution to show everything. If the judge were to actually instruct the jury, or the prosecutor were to state that "the basic facts don't suggest suspicious behavior, therefore the burden is on Mr. Zimmerman (and his lawyer) to show evidence of why it was reasonable for him to be suspicious" that would be easy grounds for a mistrial.

If you want to personally "raise an eyebrow in that direction" fine, but that's nothing more than your personal assessment of the likelihood of racial bias, and it is appears that, in a large part, you are looking for a reason for that to be the case.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Zimmerman isn't racist, just a dumbass.

The racism is on the part of the spectators who refuse to understand that the entire ordeal could have been prevented by George Zimmerman. As has been pointed out earlier in this thread, Neighborhood Watch training specifically reminds participants that they are not police, and instructs them not to attempt to do the job of the police. The entire incident should have been avoided by Zimmerman having the sense that God gave gravel, but unfortunately that was not the case.

I am continually amazed by people who think it was perfectly acceptable for Zimmerman to shoot Martin, but don't think it was acceptable for Martin to attack Zimmerman. From Martin's perspective, Zimmerman was a suspicious and dangerous individual stalking him in the dead of night. However, that's what happens when you have a bunch of fools who think that all niggers be straight thuggin', yo.

But I get it. This is clearly another case of the black man trying to keep the white man down. I mean, if this had been a thirty year-old black man shooting a seventeen year-old white kid, we'd have just let him walk when he claimed self defense.

Zimmerman wasn't walking along minding his own business when he got assaulted by a thug. Martin's the one who was minding his own business. Zimmerman hunted him down and chased him. This isn't a short skirt rape defense, we aren't being oppressed by reverse-racism, and you all aren't about to lose your right to self defense to godless liberal activist judges. Zimmerman was a moron who couldn't sit tight and let the police take over.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

So much wrong with this...but hey, you got to call peple morons and try to look cool so...good job!

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

These two statements are about all I agree with in your post. Dumbass and moron, perhaps. Maybe more likely, just not trained or knowledgable enough to know that the 911 call should have been enough based on his suspicions. Let the police do their jobs and investigate this non-event; But he got involved.

Does that then give TM the right to attack him? Assuming GZ did come up to TM and asked him a question, that is not an assault and does not warrant a violent response. If GZ gave up the chase, so to speak, and was then attacked by TM, his use of lethal force was justified to save his own life.

Truth is, no one knows who started the confrontation...who threw the first punch. GZ following TM is not that first punch, TM attacking GZ is. This information will have to be shown in the trial to even begin to decide whose actions were an assault and whose were self-defense.

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

Sure it could have, but was it criminal? If someone hits me with a car, I could have prevented that by looking around a little better and noticing the car didn't stop. However If I have the light and am in the crosswalk, my negligence is not criminal.

I think both men had ample opportunities to avoid the whole mess. What ones ares criminal and what aren't I'm not so sure.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Neither was Martin.

There's no evidence that's been presented so far that Zimmerman chased, hunted down, or assaulted Martin. He followed him. It's been repeatedly acknowledged that this was stupid. None of that changes the fact that it was within his legal rights.

So yes, it is exactly a short-skirt rape situation.

If you're amazed by people that 'think it was perfectly acceptable for Zimmerman to shoot Martin, but don't think it was acceptable for Martin to attack Zimmerman" then the problem is with you. Stop being amazed. Unless it can be demonstrated that Zimmerman actually did attack, threaten, or provoke Martin, then what Martin did was attack him.

It doesn't really matter what Zimmerman was doing from Martin's perspective, nor that Martin was "minding his own business". Zimmerman isn't obligated to read Martin's mind prior to becoming suspicious, and just because a white man is following you at 7:00 (hardly the "dead of night") when you're in his gated community does not mean you get to attack him just because you're black and he's stupid.

You're the one always ***** that there are too many people. You ought to be thrilled that Zimmerman did you a favor and got rid of one, but I suppose that then you couldn't try to be cool and edgy by pretending to point out imaginary hypocrisy. If both men had been white, or both men had been black, we'd be saying exactly the same things; the only difference is that you'd have to find some excuse besides people's supposed impressions of blacks to try to appear like you have some sort of actual grasp on social issues that no one else here has because you watched George Carlin and took a lot of math or something.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I think I said "I'd turn on him". I don't recall saying I'd assault him.

/boggle

It may lead to that, but that's up to him.

So close. You had a legitimate point, well reasoned, but then you just **** all over yourself.

Better luck next time.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

I know eye witness testimony is frackin' useless generally, but holy **** Witness No. 2 - it was dark, you didn't have your contacts in, you saw two men chasing each other about 10 feet apart, or maybe it was just one guy running alone, and you're not sure if he was black, white, adult, child or maybe even a woman, and now that you think about it more, you mostly just heard the events rather than saw them.... So in other words, you have absolutely nothing of value to add to the evidence and, in fact, you've actually made it harder to figure out what exactly happened? Thank you for wasting everyone's time.

I don't have a real problem with someone's testimony going from "this happened" to "i'm not sure". That's understandable.

Going the other way is horseshit.

This is what's really horseshit:

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Their original statements are still a part of the record right? I would argue that their original assessments hold greater weight as they are not tainted by time and outside information.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

The defense attorney should find it fairly easy to impeach any "revised" statements if he's even halfway competent. They aren't "part of the record" yet because the trial hasn't happened yet. They're part of the police record, but they have to be introduced as evidence by the attorneys.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Zimmerman's relationship with police evolved, city files show

LINK



More information that further points to the fact that Zimmerman was suspicious of Trayvon, not for reasons of race, but because of burglaries in his area.

Overzealous in his perceived "duties" as a watchman, perhaps. Racially profiling Trayvon, looks more and more unlikely.

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This must be Thursday. I could never get the hang of Thursdays.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Trayvon was staying with relatives in the neighborhood and unless his relatives are of a different race then by default Zimmerman would be used to seeing black people in the neighborhood since they live there...

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Anything less then a hanging for Zimmerman will result in a riot. And if the "stand your ground" law hold in this case denying the family a civil suit? Wow its going to be a good time.

During the OJ trial I was working in Philadelphia in a bad area. We had our work area packed and the trucks idling when the verdict was being read. We were sure a guilty verdict was going to make bad things happen.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

I don't think it would have to a significant degree. There seems to be a huge difference between the reaction to a lack of justice for a black victim and a perceived railroading of a black accused.

Surely you don't think there would only be one!?

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades