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 Post subject: AZ Supremacy Law
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:09 pm 
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http://azdailysun.com/news/local/state- ... 42700.html

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Initiative would let voters overrule federal law

PHOENIX -- Voters could get the right to overrule federal laws and mandates under the terms of an initiative filed late Thursday.

The Arizona Constitution already says the federal Constitution "is the supreme law of the land." This measure, if approved in November, it would add language saying that federal document may not be violated by any government -- including the federal government.

More to the point, it would allow Arizonans "to reject any federal action that they determine violates the United States Constitution."

That could occur through a vote of the state House and Senate with consent of the governor.

But that also could occur through a popular vote on a ballot measure, effectively allowing voters to decide which federal laws they feel infringe on Arizona's rights as a sovereign state.

Organizer Jack Biltis said he turned in more than 320,000 signatures. The next step will be for the Secretary of State to determine, after screening the petitions, if there are at least 259,213 valid names on the forms to allow the measure to go on the ballot.

Biltis, who said he has spent more than $1.2 million on the campaign so far, said it is time for Arizona to step up and reclaim its constitutional rights.

The "flagship" example, he said, is the federal Affordable Care Act. He said there is nothing in the U.S. Constitution which gives the federal government the power to enact a national health care plan.

Biltis acknowledged that the U.S. Supreme Court, faced with exactly that question, ruled to the contrary.

"I believe the Supreme Court completely got it wrong," he said. In fact, Biltis argued, the ability of the nation's high court to interpret -- and invalidate -- federal laws itself is not part of the U.S. Constitution but was claimed by the court in 1803.

"The only portion of government that has unlimited powers are the state governments and the people themselves," he said.
Biltis said that, under his measure, Arizona could simply refuse to participate, though it would do so at risk of losing federal dollars.

But Biltis' objections to federal authority are not partisan. He is equally upset with the Patriot Act, passed during the administration of George W. Bush, which gives the federal government broad powers to detain people without trial.

And then there are other issues that might not seem so weighty but that Biltis finds to be constitutionally unacceptable, like the federal law, signed during the Bush administration, which phases out the manufacture and sale of incandescent light bulbs to save energy. The most popular replacement to date has been compact fluorescent bulbs which have their own environmental issues if broken.

"Besides the insanity of it, if you have a federal government that can choose to ban a light bulb that has existed for 100 years, that served us pretty well, what can't they do?" he asked.

Nor is Biltis troubled by the idea of individual states interpreting federal law -- and nullifying those they believe are unconstitutional. He said that is precisely what happened in pre-Civil War days when some Northern states refused to honor the federal Fugitive Slave Act which required escaped slaves to be returned to their owners.

Biltis acknowledged his measure would allow Arizona to ignore other federal mandates, such as integration of schools. But he said there are various safeguards for that, ranging from public sentiment and pressure to the ability of 34 other states to amend the U.S. Constitution to give the federal government the explicit power overrule what Arizonans might have done.

There actually will be two sovereignty measures on the ballot.

A separate proposal crafted by Rep. Chester Crandell, R-Heber, would have Arizona declare its "sovereign and exclusive authority and jurisdiction over the air, water, public lands, minerals, wildlife and other natural resources within its boundaries." Exempt would be tribal and military reservations.


What exactly is going on out there?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:42 pm 
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AZ is jumping the shark.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:03 pm 
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In other words, we think that the public at large understands and would do a better job of interpreting the constitution and accompanying constitutional law precedents than the supreme court.

In a state that once had a public petition that made it all the way to the capitol for a ban on dihydrogen monoxide.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:07 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
In a state that once had a public petition that made it all the way to the capitol for a ban on dihydrogen monoxide.


:spit:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:47 pm 
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One step away from secession.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:06 pm 
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What's going on? Arizona is escalating the stakes over the Supreme Court's limitations on their immigration laws and/or the various executive agency's failure to enforce Federal law.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:21 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
What's going on? Arizona is escalating the stakes over the Supreme Court's limitations on their immigration laws and/or the various executive agency's failure to enforce Federal law.

Add to that all the historic evidence of people rejecting government which they feel no longer represents them, or their dearest interests, and this is exactly what you get. It never ceases to amaze me that people think they can dictate to, and impose on others without real resistance.

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 Post subject: Re: AZ Supremacy Law
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 4:36 pm 
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This isn't "real resistance". This law is unenforceable and meaningless if passed. This is posturing.

The frustration over the immigration issue is understandable, and the behavior of the administration childish in ending cooperation with AZ law enforcement, but the fact is that a state has no power whatsoever to make a law saying what the Federal government may or may not do. If it wants to do that it needs to get enough OTHER states to agree with it to pass a Constitutional ammendment.

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 Post subject: Re: AZ Supremacy Law
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:23 pm 
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One state at a time!

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 Post subject: Re: AZ Supremacy Law
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Jasmy wrote:
One state at a time!


Frankly, if they want to secede let them. But IMMEDIATELY cut off all funding to them, as well as legal rights for those who remain in the state.

They can negotiate for new treaties and trade status, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: AZ Supremacy Law
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:25 pm 
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I'm not sure if you don't know what the word secede means, or if you just think that we don't know what it means. ಠ_ಠ

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:33 pm 
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I know what it means, and it sure seems like that's the direction they want to go.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:29 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
I know what it means, and it sure seems like that's the direction they want to go.

You're confusing the heck out of a few of us. If they were to secede, they would no longer be a part of the United States, and as such, would construct their own high law and government with their own legal protections and their own funding system. The only sticky wicket would be the state's military bases, and the money owed to the state's citizens from social security and medicare.

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 Post subject: Re: AZ Supremacy Law
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Jasmy wrote:
One state at a time!


Frankly, if they want to secede let them. But IMMEDIATELY cut off all funding to them, as well as legal rights for those who remain in the state.

They can negotiate for new treaties and trade status, etc.


Who the hell said anything about seceding?? I was responding to DE's comments about needing enough states for a Constitutional ammendment!

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 Post subject: Re: AZ Supremacy Law
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:17 am 
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Arizona isn't jumping the shark; perhaps you should read Scalia's dissent to the SB1070 decision. Perhaps you should also read the actual ruling, which only vacates 3 of the 14 provisions and upholds the remaining 11. Scalia's comments are pretty scathing, and if you've read any of his legal scholarship on treason, you'd know that his dissent is tantamount to accusing the current President of treason. Obama jumped the shark with Arizona; Obama's refused to address one of his few Constitutionally prescribed duties with regard to Arizona; and Obama had a Supreme Court Justice point out that if he was going to treat Arizona like a domestic territory instead of a state, we might as well call it a territory instead of a state.

You may not like Arizona's politics on immigration, but every state has a right to be secure in its own borders. If the Federal Government willfully and intentionally fails to provide that service to Arizona, well ... we have a President and a Court willing to erode freedoms and the Constitution for power and politics. But, I'm simply reminded of a quote by Leon Trotsky:
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:14 am 
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Got a link to the majority opinon and the dissent Khross? With work being crazy thanks to telecom screw ups I haven't had any chance to sit down and read - I will hopefully later today or next week when I take an unpaid vacationthanks to lack of work.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:16 am 
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Arizona paid taxes to fund those military bases - those bases become Arizona's when they leave. Lets not have a repeat of Sumter.

That being said check the DOI for what logically follows when a government fails to follow its role in securing the rights of the people. Also 10th amendment.

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 Post subject: Re: AZ Supremacy Law
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:13 pm 
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Khross wrote:
...but every state has a right to be secure in its own borders.

Pretty predictable position from someone exercising an absolute monarchy.

Oh, and you suck at self-exile. Just pointing that out. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I know what it means, and it sure seems like that's the direction they want to go.

You're confusing the heck out of a few of us. If they were to secede, they would no longer be a part of the United States, and as such, would construct their own high law and government with their own legal protections and their own funding system. The only sticky wicket would be the state's military bases, and the money owed to the state's citizens from social security and medicare.


That was kinda my point. They would need to create their own currency, laws, defenses, etc. My point was that were they to want to go that route, we should let them but not provide any assistance in making that transition smooth. As for the military bases, they can keep the structures but all of the technology and hardware should be removed/dismantled.


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