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 Post subject: UN Small Arms Treaty
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:34 pm 
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I've been following this casually. I can't see how anyone could behind binding domestic policy of this nature to international treaty.

http://www.examiner.com/article/senate- ... gun-treaty

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As the United Nations prepares its final push to ratify a controversial gun treaty, the U.S. Senate is set to approve the measure which critics say will not only give away U.S. sovereignty but directly attack the individual gun rights of American citizens, according to a report published Thursday at Stand Up America.

Democrats still hold the majority in the Senate.

Known as "the U.N. small arms treaty," the measure would regulate private gun ownership, according to firearms rights watchdog groups.

Retired Lt. Gen. William Boykin, who has been at the forefront of citizen opposition to the treaty, stated,

There has been a decree by the administration by the president and the secretary of state saying that our president will sign the United Nations small arms treaty, which is about how we will buy sell and control individual private weapons,” Boykin warned. “That means the United Nations, an international body will decide how you and I as Americans can buy and sell our weapons, how we control those weapons, who is authorized to have those weapons and where they are. This is a dangerous trend.

The treaty has been in the works for several years, and both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have expressed full support for the measure, which critics say is an underhanded attempt to implement massive gun control without having to go through the normal legislative process in Congress.

Obama stated during the 2008 presidential campaign that he would not seek to push gun control through Congress due to the fact that he does not have the votes. And on that point he is correct. Gun control has fallen on hard times in America over the past two decades. Increasingly states are enacting laws that give citizens greater leeway in self defense, many approving bills that allow citizens to carry guns either openly or concealed without having a permit from the state.

In addition, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in two monumental cases in 2008 and 2010 that most of the anti-gun laws in the District of Columbia and in Chicago were unconstitutional. The ruling also clarified the definition of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, stating that the right to bear arms is an individual rather than a "collective" right.

Thus, known gun opponents such as Obama and Hillary Clinton immediately went to work to devise plans, under the radar, to attempt to change the tide of public opinion about firearms and implement gun control without the approval of Congress, according to government whistleblowers and watchdogs.

One plan was to send U.S. firearms to Mexican drug cartels as a means of padding statistics that would "prove" the administration's contention that "90 percent of the firearms used by the cartels come from the United States."

The other plan was to bypass Congress and use the U.N. to trump U.S. law by signing a treaty that would grant international supervision over the sale and possession of guns in America.

But the plans have been met by heavy opposition. Congress has exposed the scheme inherent in the Fast and Furious operation, leading to contempt charges against Attorney General Eric Holder. Hillary Clinton has been implicated in the scandal as one of the original masterminds behind the scheme. And over 130 members of Congress have openly expressed their opposition to the U.N. small arms treaty.

The Senate is also considering another U.N. based treaty called "The Law of the Sea," which is intended to regulate international waterways but would hand over U.S. sovereignty to international entities, according to critics.

President Reagan refused to approve the treaty in 1982 due to sovereignty issues. But Obama and Hillary Clinton have pushed for its ratification.

Both bills have created a firestorm of controversy due to their encroachment on the Bill of Rights and the final authority of Congress to regulate international commerce.

According to the U.S. Constitution, only Congress has the authority to regulate international commerce pertaining to the United States, and thus, critics say that the treaties are blatantly unconstitutional.

Proponents of the bills often engage in what opponents say is "Orwellian newspeak" in their frantic attempts to get the treaties approved. The Law of the Sea Treaty, for example, is being promoted as a method of "protecting U.S. sovereignty" in spite of the fact that it does nothing of the sort. And the small arms treaty is promoted as having nothing to do with individual gun rights but is rather an attempt to address gun sales by "rogue nations."

But the gun treaty applies directly to the United States and lumps the nation together with so called "rogue nations." Thus, the treaty would directly impact gun sales in the U.S. and by extension the gun rights of individual citizens.


Edit, I've read articles that seem to frame the Senate's stand on this on either side so I'd take that aspect of the issue with a big grain of salt.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:47 pm 
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People have a huge misconception about the weight of international treaties. There is no international law to trump the United States Constitution.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:32 pm 
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So all I get out of that article is fear mongering. There are no facts about what this treaty actually does.


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 Post subject: Re: UN Small Arms Treaty
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:00 pm 
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It takes a 2/3 majority to actually approve a treaty, and last I checked, it was only a little over 1/3 of the Senate in favor of it.

I can't find any decent information on what the treaty actually says. That said, it seems unlikely based on what I can find that it overtly imposes any internal gun control on any nation. The problem is more likely to be one of, say, requiring a national registry of exported guns. Never mind that the U.S. already does this, it's likely to result in calls from the gun-control crowd that we need an internal registry in order to "comply with treaty requirements".

The problem with gun control registries is that they are the first step to gun bans. Normally, this would be a slippery slope argument. However, the gun registry and eventual ban in NYC does indeed show that adopting a registry is used as an argument by gun-control advocates to push for the next step down the slope, and so forth. It's not a problem of registries in and of themselves; its a problem that when any gun control is adopted, gun control advocates inevitably use it to argue that still more controls are needed, because the registry (or whatever) didn't result in a ban.

For most people desiring to control arms, that is the end goal in and of itself. Gun control, much like arms control at the international level, is a solution looking for a problem.

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 Post subject: Re: UN Small Arms Treaty
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
For most people desiring to control arms, that is the end goal in and of itself.


I disagree with this statement.

Certainly yes, there are folks out there who only want to ban firearms. However, there are plenty (I personally believe the majority) of people who just want reasonable control around objects that can easily kill people.

For me personally, I'm less concerned about controlling the firearms themselves as I am the people wielding them. Anyone who wants to own or use a firearm should be able to pass a test, similar to a driving test, that proves you understand the basics around firearm safety, etc. After that, then go nuts.


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 Post subject: Re: UN Small Arms Treaty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:37 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
For most people desiring to control arms, that is the end goal in and of itself.


I disagree with this statement.

Certainly yes, there are folks out there who only want to ban firearms. However, there are plenty (I personally believe the majority) of people who just want reasonable control around objects that can easily kill people.


This history of gun-control advocacy indicates that this is not the case. What gun control advocates who do not advocate total bans call for is generally well in excess of anything "reasonable", and furthermore tends to be out of all proportion to the actual lethality of firearms. In some cases hilariously so; for example the concern over bayonet lugs in defining "assault weapons".

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For me personally, I'm less concerned about controlling the firearms themselves as I am the people wielding them. Anyone who wants to own or use a firearm should be able to pass a test, similar to a driving test, that proves you understand the basics around firearm safety, etc. After that, then go nuts.


That's not an unreasonable viewpoint, but that does not really put you in the gun control camp; your viewpoint is far more in line with advocacy of firearms rights. Gun control is, by definition, about gun control; it is an end in itself rather than a means of preventing violence. This is why gun control advocates talk about "Reducing gun violence", because they are interested in using violence as a reason to control guns (or more often, eliminate them) rather than reducing total violence.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:35 am 
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A barrel shroud was defined by one of the legislators proposing the first assault weapons ban as "a shoulder thingy that goes up". Banning things one doesn't understand clearly shows a reasonable attempt to promote safety (as in it does not do this at all).

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 Post subject: Re: UN Small Arms Treaty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:52 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
your viewpoint is far more in line with advocacy of firearms rights.


Show me one advocacy group that has ever been for a "gun license".


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 Post subject: Re: UN Small Arms Treaty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:33 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
For most people desiring to control arms, that is the end goal in and of itself.


For me personally, I'm less concerned about controlling the firearms themselves as I am the people wielding them. Anyone who wants to own or use a firearm should be able to pass a test, similar to a driving test, that proves you understand the basics around firearm safety, etc. After that, then go nuts.


Do you believe you should have to first pass a test to vote? Speak freely? Practice your religious beliefs?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:26 pm 
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In fairness the latter three activities don't exactly have the potential to end the life of someone else the way a firearm can.

Its not a one for one comparison.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:36 pm 
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I would consider it in line with a driving test.

In order to legally drive, you have to show that you're not legally blind (ie, can see other people when you're driving) and basically understand how to drive without injuring yourself and others inadvertently.

And I see no reason why this should not extend to guns.

For every friend I know that has a CCW license or owns guns that is actually responsible, and knows both how to shoot and how to handle them safely, I've got another 2 or 3 friends that want to get a Desert Eagle, but have never shot a handgun in their lives. And their ownership will probably consist of going to a lane once or twice and being amazed at the power of the gun, and then keeping it loaded somewhere at hand, even though they can barely hit the broad side of a barn.

They're also the types that have a tendency to mix gunpowder and alcohol, something I have a huge problem with.

So yes, I'm all for having to prove basic proficiency before you can have a gun. I'd also be for requiring people to actually log some hours during the course of a year in order to keep up said proficiency.

I have no problem with people that can actually shoot and aren't morons having guns around me. I have a huge problem with those whose only exposure to actually shooting the guns comes from Modern Warfare and Halo, and think that they can heroically step in and use the gun to stop crime. I don't want those people shooting guns around me.

Personally, I've got a huge collection of firearms. I've been shooting since I was 8, and while I'm not a crack shot, I can shoot pretty well, and I don't drink while I'm shooting. And I'd say such a requirement would push me to actually get to a range and keep up a bit more, which would be a very good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: UN Small Arms Treaty
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
For most people desiring to control arms, that is the end goal in and of itself.


For me personally, I'm less concerned about controlling the firearms themselves as I am the people wielding them. Anyone who wants to own or use a firearm should be able to pass a test, similar to a driving test, that proves you understand the basics around firearm safety, etc. After that, then go nuts.


Do you believe you should have to first pass a test to vote? Speak freely? Practice your religious beliefs?


Vote, yes. The rest, no.

And none of those can instantly kill people. The world today isn't the world of the founding fathers, and our laws need to change to reflect that fact.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:14 am 
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NephyrS wrote:
, I've got another 2 or 3 friends that want to get a Desert Eagle, but have never shot a handgun in their lives. And their ownership will probably consist of going to a lane once or twice and being amazed at the power of the gun,




The interesting part starts about 35 seconds in. That's my friend Marci... yeah she's a girl, and yeah she's tinyish. But there's footage of me firing it after she tries the HK Mk23 .45

The DE is no freaking joke. Its not a good personal defense weapon. Its big, heavy, cumbersome, difficult to cock, and nigh uncontrollable if you have no handgun experience. Its not amazing... its actually kinda scary... and I <3 guns.

Not to mention the rounds for it are something like 30 bucks per 20.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:03 am 
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NephyrS wrote:
In order to legally drive, you have to show that you're not legally blind


Do you believe then that it's appropriate to place limits on people's abilities to defend themselves based on disability?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:51 am 
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If their disability would make it far more likely that they might inadvertently injure someone else? Yes.

If you're too blind to distinguish between people/clearly see targets 20 yards away, you should not be shooting at them. We don't let people who can't see play Russian Roulette with their cars, why would we let them do it with guns?

Similarly, if you don't have the arm and hand strength to control a DE, you shouldn't be shooting it.

And if you can't consistently hit what you're aiming, you shouldn't be shooting it.

And yes, DE, that's whats happened to all my friends who got overpowered guns too. They just wanted something big and badass, not something that would actually be a good personal defense weapon. Especially since half of them are using it in their homes, where a shotgun would be far better.

I want people like Elmo to have guns.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:58 am 
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Speaking of small arms:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:43 pm 
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My thoughts on firearm licensing are this:
If you purchase a firearm for use on private property (your own or anybody with whom you have an agreement), you should be able to plunk down the cash, get the firearm and walk out, no questions asked. If you want to use a firearm to hunt on public grounds or potentially shoot an idiot on the subway, now let's talk about that. Should there be some barrier to entry? Yes. For hunting, for instance, states issue hunting licenses, and many states have a prerequisite hunter education certification. So that's an appropriate barrier, much in line with being allowed to operate a motor vehicle on public roadways. For shooting idiots on the subway, the licensing should be a bit more stringent. For example, you should be able to qualify with a set of firearms, under stress, and give an accurate description afterwards of the situation and your response. This license is something of a public protector license, and since you should be held close to law enforcement standards, you should reap the benefits of legal consideration to the same measure. And then maybe if you want to shoot idiots on an airplane, you have to get an upgrade to your first license, more stringent, and then you can walk onto an airplane with your firearm.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Shuyung- thanks for bringing up the private v public use issue.

I should clarify that my above concerns are for people who wish to use a firearm off of their own personal property.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:59 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
If you purchase a firearm for use on private property (your own or anybody with whom you have an agreement), you should be able to plunk down the cash, get the firearm and walk out, no questions asked.


This is all well and good, but unless you own a large farm or other large plot of land, your use of said firearm won't likely remain on your property. (i.e. even a .22 is dangerous to a mile or so)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Maybe it's because I'm good at math, but I'm willing to accept that risk.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
shuyung wrote:
If you purchase a firearm for use on private property (your own or anybody with whom you have an agreement), you should be able to plunk down the cash, get the firearm and walk out, no questions asked.

This is all well and good, but unless you own a large farm or other large plot of land, your use of said firearm won't likely remain on your property. (i.e. even a .22 is dangerous to a mile or so)

I think the more serious concern would be that there's no way to confirm, at the time of purchase, whether said purchaser will in fact only use the firearm for legitimate reasons and exclusively on his/her own property. Hence the need for universal background checks at the very least. I'm less worried about irresponsible gun owners accidentally shooting someone than I am about people with a history of violence and/or mental illness deliberately shooting someone.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Already have universal background checks at FFL's RD. Have for years andyears.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:37 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
I think the more serious concern would be that there's no way to confirm, at the time of purchase, whether said purchaser will in fact only use the firearm for legitimate reasons and exclusively on his/her own property. Hence the need for universal background checks at the very least. I'm less worried about irresponsible gun owners accidentally shooting someone than I am about people with a history of violence and/or mental illness deliberately shooting someone.

This does not concern me. We already have penalties for committing a crime, whether with a firearm or not.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Already have universal background checks at FFL's RD. Have for years andyears.

Not sure what FFL stands for, but my understanding is that things like gun shows and other private sales don't have the same background check requirements that dealers do. Is that not the case?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:36 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
We already have penalties for committing a crime, whether with a firearm or not.

Aye, but I'm looking to prevent, not penalize.


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