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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Fine, if we want to talk about someone that actually has a significant amount of influence, let's talk about David Barton.

Lots of pull in Texas (board of education, especially) as well as in the national convention.

Thinks that all founders were born-again Christians, and writes books to this effect. Likes to make up facts and say "he has documents" to support his arguments.

I especially love how he talks about how the founding fathers didn't intend for evolution to be taught in schools.... A theory that wasn't developed until well after most of them had passed away.

He's also been given verbal accolades from Romney, Perry, and several other GoP candidates.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
No, I'm afraid of anyone that holds public influence and tries to spread a message of intolerance.

Have you noticed that I'm answering all of your questions, and every single post you make is just trying to dismiss my opinion or move the goalposts?



I've noticed everything and I'm giving my opinion in yes a somewhat snarky way. I'm not moving any goalposts, I'm trying to get you to see how absurd you sound. You start by saying you don't want religion in your politics, fine. Then when asked for an example of something, you give the name of someone who isn't even in politics so would have ZERO effect on who or what you do. But you also don't want that person to have influence over folks that might could have an affect on you, but then you have also said that you are FOR Obama who has fufilled ALL the requirments that you seem to be so afraid of.

That's a lot of buts but I think you get what I'm saying.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Nitefox wrote:
Lenas wrote:
He's someone that has been given TV time while supporting a presidential candidate. The candidate in question was Rick Santorum, but Perry also had similar supporters.



So basically you are afraid of somone who doesn't make laws, policy or anything that would disrupt your daily life...


I know right? Its almost like being afraid of gays.



In this context...not even a little bit. But thanks for playing!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:45 pm 
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What has Obama done that goes against anything I've said? The only time you see Obama and religion in the same news story is when the right wing Christians are mad at him for something. Like allowing a mosque to be built, or supporting same sex marriage.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
What has Obama done that goes against anything I've said? The only time you see Obama and religion in the same news story is when the right wing Christians are mad at him for something. Like allowing a mosque to be built, or supporting same sex marriage.



Jeremiah Wright?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Really? You're gonna say that the other pastors I referenced have nothing to do with anything, and then turn around and reference Wright? FYI I don't like what his ignorant *** has to say, either, but Obama doesn't repeat any of it or support him at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Really? You're gonna say that the other pastors I referenced have nothing to do with anything, and then turn around and reference Wright? FYI I don't like what his ignorant *** has to say, either, but Obama doesn't repeat any of it or support him at all.



I give up.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:03 pm 
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I think it's worth pointing out the only person in this thread that has suggested that religion should be in politics is the one who said "I want to see an atheist President."

Just sayin. The rest of the thread is so stupid I'm not even going to comment.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:05 pm 
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I say that because I haven't seen it. You can also put me on the record for wanting to have a Jewish POTUS if you want. Ultimately I want religion to be irrelevant and I don't want the nation to think that if someone isn't some form of Christian, he isn't a real candidate. You saw the amount of xenophobia when everyone was trying to claim that Obama was a Muslim and it got everyone riled up. That shouldn't have anything to do with anything.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:19 pm 
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I have been registered republican since after the Clinton Administration. And I think they just lost me to the **** screw voting regime...

Before linking this, let me just say it absolutely pisses me off to be quoting this "news" source...

Huffington Post - Ron Paul Won

Quoted and spoilered for link impaired...

Spoiler:
linked piece wrote:
In all fields of human endeavor, winning by cheating is losing.

In a competition, when someone cheats, he gets disqualified. The disqualification does not make the runner-up the winner. Rather, it reveals that the man who appeared to be the runner-up had in fact been the winner all along.

In the race for the GOP nomination for president, therefore, Ron Paul won.

As the New York Times wrote yesterday,

Delegates from Nevada tried to nominate Mr. Paul from the floor, submitting petitions from their own state as well as Minnesota, Maine, Iowa, Oregon, Alaska and the Virgin Islands. That should have done the trick: Rules require signatures from just five states. But the party changed the rules on the spot. Henceforth, delegates must gather petitions from eight states.
When Mr. Romney and the RNC cheat so blatantly, they make the game no longer about politics: they make themselves ineligible for the vote of anyone who cares about his own morality, his own honesty or his own integrity -- regardless of his politics. And from a purely practical standpoint, they invite Americans to ask if they want to live in a nation governed with the same contempt for those who don't toe the party line as has been displayed both in Tampa and throughout the primary process.

But as a Ron Paul supporter, I can't remember feeling so invigorated and empowered in my cause.

Not only did my candidate win: the GOP has given the Liberty movement the greatest gift it could have given us. It has induced a righteous indignation will ensure that there will be no lull in the Liberty movement post-convention or post-election. It has educated us; it has brought us together like only a common hurt can, and it has freed us to do whatever needs to be done for the cause we love, wherever we need to do it.

To those in the Liberty movement who in the first flush of anger are saying they will never vote GOP again, I would humbly suggest that there is no better revenge than success and that success, therefore, is a dish best served cold.

Ron Paul has been fighting for the cause of freedom for 30 years. Even if Romney were to win the election in November -- a possibility now massively reduced by the disenfranchisement of a large minority of Republicans who comprise its most energetic activists -- eventually he'll be just another ex-president. But the GOP's behavior has just about ensured that Liberty will never be just another ex-movement. Thanks to GOP, a hardened, indignant and wiser Liberty movement will be as much "here" in four years or eight years as the Constitution will be.

And each time one of the main parties blatantly chooses power over honesty and fairness, it opens the unconverted to one of the most important messages of the Liberty movement: that the answers to our problems may not be found in the platforms or most of the people of the main parties that created them.

When I was observing the GOP caucuses in Seattle, I was able to ask a number of caucus goers who they voted for. Everyone I asked who was under 40 was there for Ron Paul. Everyone I asked who was over 65 was there for Mitt Romney. The younger adults would explain why they liked their candidate with passion, conviction, excitement and an unusual understanding of issues -- in other words, the stuff that victories are made of. The senior citizens -- every one of them -- gave as justification for their support of Romney, "He's the man who can beat Obama." (The logic didn't work so well for John Kerry, as I recall.)

I wanted to help them see the flaw in their answer by asking why they'd want to replace a large bank-funded, Patriot Act-supporting, NDAA-supporting, interventionist who doesn't have a plan to reduce government spending in the foreseeable future with a ...

You see, of course, why I couldn't ask the question.

More to the point, the people who "like Romney" are the outgoing seniors. The future of the party will comprise, out of simple biological necessity, those younger, liberty-loving, peace-mongering Constitutionalists, the likes of whom the RNC has worked so hard to put down.

That's exciting.

But things are even more exciting if I am wrong.

Think for a minute what happens to all these excitable young people if the GOP old guard stick around for long-enough to succeed in thwarting every effort the Paul supporters make to take over the party. In that case, the GOP will achieve something that no third party has: it will make third parties credible and their support significant. We may even look back at August 28 as the day when the seed of a brand new party was sown. Stranger things have happened.

Whichever way it goes, the GOP's failure to integrate its liberty wing will seriously endanger the duopolistic political system on which they have depended for so long because the liberty movement is now simply too large to disappear.

Whether this liberty movement of critical mass changes the mainstream of U.S. politics by controlling the GOP, or by becoming the philosophically coherent minority that swings elections is, in the long-run, a choice for the Republican party to make. However, for this election cycle, the GOP appears to have made its choice.

It doesn't really matter: a paradigm shift is already under way. As I wrote in "Ron Paul Can Win," the best piece of evidence that this is so is that the means used to by those with an interest in the old, prevailing paradigm to maintain it become more contorted, and increasingly dependent on ignoring large chunks of reality -- like the social and cultural phenomenon of hundreds of thousands of the nation's youth filling stadiums to hear an old conservative politicians talk about even older philosophers and economists; the brute fact that the number of non-supporters of the main parties is unprecedented, or the simple expectation of fair play in competitive endeavors.

To my liberty- and peace-loving friends, I urge that our responsibility in November is to put the mainstream on notice that the Independent, post-partisan middle is now liberty-dominated and large enough to turn elections.

If the mainstream knows this, they will be forced -- out of shear self-interest and love of power -- to give civil rights, peace and real markets more than lip-service. Remember, in a two-party system, the candidate who wins over the median swing voter wins the election. Controlling the "politics of the middle" therefore offers disproportionate political influence.

To that end, write in Ron Paul if a write-in vote will be counted in your state. If Ron Paul endorses someone, vote for him. Otherwise, vote Gary Johnson (or your favored third party candidate). Just remember that we wield influence by demonstrating to the GOP and DNC that we are the group that swings elections from now on. Therefore, a vote against Obamney is not enough. Even a vote via write-in for Paul is not enough if no one will ever see it. Constitutionalists, libertarians, Blue Republicans, down-the-line pro-peace progressives, protest voters, etc. must vote for Paul's principles and get that vote counted.

I remain a Ron Paul loyalist. I suspect that the most principled politician of our time would consider a vote cast in good conscience for his values to be a vote for him. In fact, if you've come this far as a supporter of Dr. Paul, however you decide to vote in the November in support of his values, you can probably say without too much of a stretch, "I voted for Ron Paul in 2012."

But for sure, you can already say that you supported him when he won the GOP nomination, because that, by any honest measure, is just what he did.

The Republicrats only have their duopoly if we give it to them. And you know what you get if you vote for the lesser of two evils, don't you?

Hint: the answer is in the question.


They also have this picture up:
Spoiler:
Image

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
I say that because I haven't seen it. You can also put me on the record for wanting to have a Jewish POTUS if you want. Ultimately I want religion to be irrelevant and I don't want the nation to think that if someone isn't some form of Christian, he isn't a real candidate. You saw the amount of xenophobia when everyone was trying to claim that Obama was a Muslim and it got everyone riled up. That shouldn't have anything to do with anything.


+++ Well said


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:33 pm 
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I'd argue that Romney's candidacy is actually one that supports the notion that religion isn't an automatic disqualifier.

Most Christians consider Mormons to be relatively far out there, and it's probably a pretty significant split (that I wouldn't want to call one way or the other) among Christians as to whether they consider the LDS "real" Christians or not.

So, to counter, I'd suggest that the reaction to claims that Obama is a Muslim weren't "xenophobia," as you put it, but more a reaction to sharing the specific religion of the radicals we've been waging a war on terror against for a decade, now. It wasn't a fear that we'd be lead by a Godless heathen who doesn't worship Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, but rather a fear (whose merits or basis are completely irrelevant to this point) that he'd be sympathetic to the sworn enemies of our nation.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Most Christians consider Mormons to be relatively far out there,



Pretty much this. No offense to any Mormons around here, but I don't agree or go along with their belief system to be quite honest. Romney's religious beliefs are a non-starter for me and I have zero belief that one,he is going to try and force his brand of religion into my life, and two, even if he tried congress would step in.(though I can somewhat see folks fear...look at what congress let Obama get away with...)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:08 pm 
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To be fair, this isn't about Mittington von Romniforce III's mormonosity as much as it is about the whacked out fundamentalism of the republican party of late.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:20 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Sadly.

How about religious people not having irrational fears of things that don't affect them one way or another instead of creating policy based on their own prejudices?

See, it cuts both ways.


Since "religious people" aren't unilaterally creating policy at all, and don't all think the same things or necessarily agree on what any given policy should be and so couldn't do so even if they wanted to.. no, it doesn't. As for them not having irrational fears.. how about if everyone just quits having irrational fears? For that matter, how about we fly to Saturn tomorrow and have lunch there?

Guess what? About the only thing it's reasonable for you to expect is that no one will put a gun to your head and drag you into church, make your kid pray in school, or use your tax money to build new mosques. Beyond that, you pretty much have to reasonable expectation that religious influence will remain out of politics, any more than religious people have any reasonable expectation that atheism will remain out of politics.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:28 pm 
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So you're in favor of a theocracy. Gotcha.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:37 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Beyond that, you pretty much have to reasonable expectation that religious influence will remain out of politics, any more than religious people have any reasonable expectation that atheism will remain out of politics.


Religious people should have no such expectation; political discourse should be atheist, objective and fact-based in nature. It's the only way to maintain equality.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:38 pm 
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Müs wrote:
So you're in favor of a theocracy. Gotcha.


So you just like to throw inflammatory words around. gotcha.

I don't know how you think "the government can't force you to go to church, or use tax money to build mosques" somehow means "in favor of theocracy".

Oh wait, yes I do. People who aren't religious think the first ammendment is there so thay can declare any idea that's "too religious" for them out of bounds.

It's quite interesting; this attitude would have been an excellent argument in favor of the anti-federalist opposition to the bill of rights.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Religious people should have no such expectation; political discourse should be atheist, objective and fact-based in nature. It's the only way to maintain equality.


No, as a matter of fact it shouldn't, especially since atheism isn't either objective or fact-based. It's a religion.

All you're doing is promoting your own brand of bigotry and calling it equality.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:41 pm 
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Replace it with the word agnostic then. No religion, of any kind, has any room in political discourse.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Replace it with the word agnostic then. No religion, of any kind, has any room in political discourse.


Yes it does. Religious people have the same right as anyone else to express any political opinion they want for any reason they want.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:43 pm 
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But they don't have the right to create laws based on those beliefs that will also rule over others of different beliefs.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:44 pm 
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There is a huge difference between keeping religion out of politics (i think you probably mean Government), and keeping religious people out of politics.

The only way to keep religion out of politics is to completely abolish ALL religions. That is obviously not going to happen (nor should you expect it).

As long as people live their lives based on religious principles, there is no way to separate those principles from their political positions (abortion is probably the best example).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:46 pm 
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All laws are based on some morality or another. A law states that x behavior goes against what we believe to be right.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:55 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
But they don't have the right to create laws based on those beliefs that will also rule over others of different beliefs.


This.

If a Jewish President created a law against pork, that would be wrong yes?

So why are laws preventing gay couples from receiving the same benefits as straight married people ok because of religion?

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