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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:59 pm 
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Phew. I didn't want to go re-read the Silmarillion, and it has been a long time since I read it, and I was wracking my brain trying to remember what could possibly have been in there that would qualify as bridging content between Hobbit and LotR. Thanks, Taly. I'm already one of only eight people in the world who've read it, I didn't want to be 'that one guy who's read it twice'.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:09 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
Thanks, Taly. I'm already one of only eight people in the world who've read it, I didn't want to be 'that one guy who's read it twice'.

It's okay. At worst, you'd have been "the other guy who's read it twice."

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:13 pm 
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There are some stories though. I think in the Unfinished Tales? Not sure, it's been a while and I forget. There is a story about the death of Theodred, son of King Theoden.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:27 pm 
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Reading the Silmarillion is like reading the Bible, except without the brownie points.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 12:43 am 
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Alex from a A Clockwork Orange rather enjoyed reading the Bible in prison.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:05 am 
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Yea but he was **** crazy.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
Reading the Silmarillion is like reading the Bible, except without the brownie points.


Nah, only part of it is IMO. A lot of it is some pretty awesome reading. (Though "The Children of Hurin" is now around to let people see one of the better parts of it without having to slog through the rough parts).

Both Bery and I have been through the Silmarillion multiple times.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:36 pm 
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The Children Hurin is a great story, but it is nearly unrelentingly tragic. The moral of the story is don't curse Morgoth because he will F you up, and your children too. Every time you think it can't get worse, it does. Much much worse.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:13 pm 
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Aegnor wrote:
The Children Hurin is a great story, but it is nearly unrelentingly tragic. The moral of the story is don't curse Morgoth because he will F you up, and your children too. Every time you think it can't get worse, it does. Much much worse.


So it's a Chekov play?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:38 pm 
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Aegnor wrote:
The Children Hurin is a great story, but it is nearly unrelentingly tragic. The moral of the story is don't curse Morgoth because he will F you up, and your children too. Every time you think it can't get worse, it does. Much much worse.


Tolkien's commentary in the preface on the nature of evil is brilliantly insightful. To paraphrase: Morgoth doesn't put a curse on you, Morgoth is the curse on you.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hobbit (2011)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:57 pm 
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Re-reading The Hobbit, a book I haven't read since 1991. Clearly I don't remember the book as well as I had thought (though I think I breezed through a bit of it).

It may be a bit blasphemous to say, but I think I may like Jackson's vision of the Hobbit story over Tolkien's himself. I remember the book being a little more child friendly, but... wow. Their arrival into Rivendell felt exactly the same in tone as the South Park kids entering "French Canada."

The elves were quite uh... yeah. Lots of singing (imagine a Jackson elf busting out a smile and singing "Tra la la lalley!") and merrily poking fun at the dwarves. The complete opposite of "serious business." And even the dwarves themselves are a very merry and happy bunch ready to burst into song at a moment's notice.

I was also surprised to see mention of Azog (the pale orc) and even the necromancer. So it wasn't a complete "left field" inclusion in the movie.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:06 pm 
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The blasphemy bit is why I periodically feel compelled to point out to people that the movies were actually better than the books when people start ***** and whining about how they didn't like the movies. I mean, I didn't get bored and walk out of the theater, so the movies have that going for them over the books.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:13 pm 
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I've never been compelled to read the books, not before the movies were announced or even after they were. My general like as an objective observer of the movies coupled with the crying of the purists have made me less compelled to do so now.

Of course I do realize that if it were one of "my" series being turned into a movie (movified?)I'd probably be one of those crying purists also.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:10 pm 
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Tom Bombadil? Pure evil.

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Oldest and Fatherless: The Terrible Secret of Tom Bombadil


Old Tom Bombadil. Possibly the least liked character in The Lord of the Rings. A childish figure so disliked by fans of the book that few object to his absence from all adaptations of the story. And yet, there is another way of looking at Bombadil, based only on what appears in the book itself, that paints a very different picture of this figure of fun.

What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He is fat and jolly and smiles all the time. He is friendly and gregarious and always ready to help travellers in distress.

Except that none of that can possibly be true.

Consider: By his own account (and by Elrond’s surprisingly sketchy knowledge) Bombadil has lived in the Old Forest since before the hobbits came to the Shire. Since before Elrond was born. Since the earliest days of the First Age.

And yet no hobbit has ever heard of him.

The guise in which Bombadil appears to Frodo and his companions is much like a hobbit writ large. He loves food and songs and nonsense rhymes and drink and company. Any hobbit who saw such a person would tell tales of him. Any hobbit who was rescued by Tom would sing songs about him and tell everyone else. Yet Merry – who knows all the history of Buckland and has ventured into the Old Forest many times – has never heard of Tom Bombadil. Frodo and Sam – avid readers of old Bilbo’s lore – have no idea that any such being exists, until he appears to them. All the hobbits of the Shire think of the Old Forest as a place of horror – not as the abode of a jolly fat man who is surprisingly generous with his food.

If Bombadil has indeed lived in the Old Forest all this time – in a house less than twenty miles from Buckland – then it stands to reason that he has never appeared to a single hobbit traveller before, and has certainly never rescued one from death. In the 1400 years since the Shire was settled.

What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He is not what he seems.

Elrond, the greatest lore-master of the Third Age, has never heard of Tom Bombadil. Elrond is only vaguely aware that there was once someone called Iarwain Ben-Adar (“Oldest and Fatherless”) who might be the same as Bombadil. And yet, the main road between Rivendell and the Grey Havens passes not 20 miles from Bombadil’s house, which stands beside the most ancient forest in Middle Earth. Has no elf ever wandered in the Old Forest or encountered Bombadil in all these thousands of years? Apparently not.

Gandalf seems to know more, but he keeps his knowledge to himself. At the Council of Elrond, when people suggest sending the Ring to Bombadil, Gandalf comes up with a surprisingly varied list of reasons why that should not be done. It is not clear that any of the reasons that he gives are the true one.

Now, in his conversation with Frodo, Bombadil implies (but avoids directly stating) that he had heard of their coming from Farmer Maggot and from Gildor’s elves (both of whom Frodo had recently described). But that also makes no sense. Maggot lives west of the Brandywine, remained there when Frodo left, and never even knew that Frodo would be leaving the Shire. And if Elrond knows nothing of Bombadil, how can he be a friend of Gildor’s?

What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He lies.

A question: what is the most dangerous place in Middle Earth? First place goes to the Mines of Moria, home of the Balrog, but what is the second most dangerous place? Tom Bombadil’s country.
By comparison, Mordor is a safe and well-run land, where two lightly-armed hobbits can wander for days without meeting anything more dangerous than themselves. Yet the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs, all part of Tom’s country, are filled with perils that would tax anyone in the Fellowship except perhaps Gandalf.

Now, it is canonical in Tolkein that powerful magical beings imprint their nature on their homes. Lorien under Galadriel is a place of peace and light. Moria, after the Balrog awoke, was a place of terror to which lesser evil creatures were drawn. Likewise, when Sauron lived in Mirkwood, it became blighted with evil and a home to monsters.

And then, there’s Tom Bombadil’s Country.

The hobbits can sense the hatred within all the trees in the Old Forest. Every tree in that place is a malevolent huorn, hating humankind. Every single tree. And the barrows of the ancient kings that lie nearby are defiled and inhabited by Barrow-Wights. Bombadil has the power to control or banish all these creatures, but he does not do so. Instead, he provides a refuge for them against men and other powers. Evil things – and only evil things – flourish in his domain. “Tom Bombadil is the master” Goldberry says. And his subjects are black huorns and barrow wights.

What do we know about Tom Bombadil? He is not the benevolent figure that he pretends to be.

Tom appears to the Ringbearer in a friendly, happy guise, to question and test him and to give him and his companions swords that can kill the servants of another evil power. But his motives are his own.

Consider: it is said more than once that the willows are the most powerful and evil trees in the Forest. Yet, the rhyme that Bombadil teaches the hobbits to use in conjuring up Bombadil himself includes the line, “By the reed and willow.” The willows are a part of Bombadil’s power and a means of calling on him. They draw their strength from the cursed river Withywindle, the centre of all the evil in the Forest.

And the springs of the Withywindle are right next to Tom Bombadil’s house.

And then there is Goldberry, “the river-daughter”. She is presented as Bombadil’s wife, an improbably beautiful and regal being who charms and beguiles the hobbits. It is implied that she is a water spirit, and she sits combing her long, blonde hair after the manner of a mermaid. (And it is worth remembering that mermaids were originally seen as monsters, beautiful above the water, slimy and hideous below, luring sailors to drown and be eaten.) But I suggest the name means that in her true state, Goldberry is nourished by the River – that is, by the proverbially evil Withywindle.

In folklore and legend (as Tolkien would know well) there are many tales of creatures that can take on human form but whose human shape always contains a clue to their true nature. So what might Goldberry be? She is tall and slender - specifically she is “slender as a willow wand”. She wears a green dress, sits amidst bowls of river water and is surrounded by the curtain of her golden hair. I suggest that she is a Willow tree conjured into human form, a malevolent huorn like the Old Man Willow from whom the hobbits have just escaped. If she is not indeed the same tree.

So, if this is true, then why does Bombadil save and help the ringbearer and his companions? Because they can bring about the downfall of Sauron, the current Dark Lord of Middle Earth. When Sauron falls, the other rings will fail and the wizards and elves will leave Middle Earth and the only great power that is left will be Bombadil.

There is a boundary around Bombadil’s country that he cannot or will not pass, something that confines him to a narrow space. And in return, no wizard or elf comes into his country to see who rules it, or to disturb the evil creatures that gather under his protection.

When the hobbits return to the Shire after their journey to Mordor, Gandalf leaves them close to Bree and goes towards Bombadil’s country to have words with him. We do not know what they say. But Gandalf was sent to Middle Earth to contend against Sauron and now he must depart. He has been given no mission to confront Bombadil and he must soon leave Middle Earth to powerless men and hobbits, while Bombadil remains, waiting to fulfill his purpose.

Do I think that Tolkien planned things in this way? Not at all, but I find it an interesting speculation.

To speculate further and more wildly:

The spell that binds Bombadil to his narrow and cursed country was put in place centuries ago by the Valar to protect men and elves. It may last a few decades more, perhaps a few generations of hobbit lives. But when the last elf has gone from the havens and the last spells of rings and wizards unravel, then it will be gone. And Iarwain Ben-Adar, Oldest and Fatherless, who was ruler of the darkness in Middle Earth before Sauron was, before Morgoth set foot there, before the first rising of the sun, will come into his inheritance again. And one dark night the old trees will march westward into the Shire to feed their ancient hatred. And Bombadil will dance down amongst them, clad in his true shape at last, singing his incomprehensible rhymes as the trees mutter their curses and the black and terrible Barrow-Wights dance and gibber around him. And he will be smiling.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:46 pm 
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Interesting take on Bombadil, though I've never really gotten the Bombadil hate.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Hmm. That's a pretty fascinating read. Sounds like Bombadil was a pretty important guy... who got cut. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:24 pm 
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Rule One: the Bombadil lies?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:12 pm 
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If that is what Tolkien intended him to be...I am impressed.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:26 am 
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That's great. I'm one of the Bombadil haters, but now I want to go back and read those sections ...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:23 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Hobbit (2011)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Definitely looks better than the snoozefest that was part 1.


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 Post subject: Re: The Hobbit (2011)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:48 pm 
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...

He's not in that book ...

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 Post subject: Re: The Hobbit (2011)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Khross wrote:
...

He's not in that book ...


Holy stupid made-up bullshit, batman!

Same fixation with making moronic additions that ruined the LotR movies for me.

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 Post subject: Re: The Hobbit (2011)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Khross wrote:
...

He's not in that book ...


Are you referring to Legolas?

He could have been - there were a great many unnamed elves in the book.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:15 pm 
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Certainly his father Thranduil, is in the book


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