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 Post subject: Lance
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:56 am 
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The Game Master.
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No, not your secret butt buddy Lance.

Lance Armstrong, or, why should we care.

http://reason.com/blog/2013/01/18/no-do ... ctators-ca

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"No Dope, No Hope" - Why Should Spectators Care About "Doping" In Sports?

Ronald Bailey|Jan. 18, 2013 10:52 am



It's official. Lance Armstrong admitted to Oprah last night that he "doped' his way to victory in the sport of cycling. So what? Well, the only reasonable objection is that it violated the rules; but other than that, why would any spectator care? Is the thrill of witnsessing a hard-fought competition thus somehow diminished? If enhancements undermine the competition, why not require cyclists to ride the same sort of bikes that were used in the first Tour de France in 1903? Surely the use of optimized light-weight bikes today is an enhancement?

Speaking of the 1903 Tour de France, "doping" was then an acceptable part of the race. At various points, cyclists evidently used ether, strychnine, and amphetamines to gain an edge. In 1998, a German rider told Der Spiegel:


"For as long as the Tour has existed, since 1903, its participants have been doping themselves. No dope, no hope. The Tour, in fact, is only possible because - not despite the fact - there is doping. For 60 years this was allowed. For the past 30 years it has been officially prohibited. Yet the fact remains; great cyclists have been doping themselves, then as now."

Some people will argue that athletes must be protected against the temptataion to use enhancements because they could harm their health. However, athletes already take all kinds of health-harming risks just to play their games. Why shouldn't adults be able to make up their own minds about the risk/reward calculus of using biological enhancements? The best way that policymakers and sports officials can reduce the harm to athletes that might result from using enhancements would be to bring their use out of the shadows and let it be done with the benefit of medical oversight and good research.

A while back, I proposed an experiment in which sports leagues could be divided into the Naturals and the Enhanced. As I wrote:


"Why not solve the future problem of gene doping and the current problem of steroid use in professional sports by creating two kinds of sports leagues? One would be free of genetic and pharmacologic enhancements - call them the Natural Leagues. The other would allow players to use gene fixes and other enhancements - call them the Enhanced Leagues. Let fans decide which play they prefer."

Why not indeed?

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:09 am 
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I think baseball needs steroids. Just my 2cp though.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:06 pm 
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Lance did good things, but he did evil things as well. He isn't a good guy or a nice guy. Lots of those driven to win at any cost aren't. The lifetime ban should stay, and the legal penalties for what he has done should be enforced. The folks he has conspired to destroy for telling the truth about him should seek and receive restitution. Livestrong should go on doing its good works, but he should be separated from it. Sucks to be him.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:05 pm 
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**** steroids and **** Lance Armstrong. Bring back Ty Cobb and let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame.

You know what doping and PED use hurts? It kills inspiration in a sport like cycling, or even baseball, where someone of less than perfect, hulking physical stature can still succeed. I personally hated the home run derby of the late 90s. I've recently come to think that that's because I HAVE NO HOPE OF EVER HITTING A HOME RUN. I am weak and puny, but, you know what? I can probably make contact, steal a base, maybe play some defense. Or, on a bike, dammit, I can ride from here to San Francisco if I need to.

Watching baseball players or cyclists who you think are doing these things through natural ability, you do become inspired. I've ridden up mountains on a bike, with panniers and gear, and it takes a lot of determination and conditioning. Seeing Floyd Landis win that epic stage in the 2006 Tour de France, I had some small measure of understanding what it takes to do that.

Then you learn that they all doped and think, well, no, I no longer relate to that. It in fact becomes uninspiring, and I do not admire the ability or willingness to wreck your body in that pursuit.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:57 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Lance
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:54 pm 
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http://www.theonion.com/video/lance-arm ... -ki,30963/

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 Post subject: Re: Lance
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:55 am 
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I still don't think he cheated; I think he just wants to compete again. I realize "doping" is hard to track, but they tested him twice a day during competitions for the last 5 and every 72 hours on the off season after the 2nd.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:47 pm 
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http://www.theonion.com/articles/lance- ... /?ref=auto

The Onion. Ahead of its time again. :)

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Aethien wrote:
**** steroids and **** Lance Armstrong. Bring back Ty Cobb and let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame.

You know what doping and PED use hurts? It kills inspiration in a sport like cycling, or even baseball, where someone of less than perfect, hulking physical stature can still succeed. I personally hated the home run derby of the late 90s. I've recently come to think that that's because I HAVE NO HOPE OF EVER HITTING A HOME RUN. I am weak and puny, but, you know what? I can probably make contact, steal a base, maybe play some defense. Or, on a bike, dammit, I can ride from here to San Francisco if I need to.

Watching baseball players or cyclists who you think are doing these things through natural ability, you do become inspired. I've ridden up mountains on a bike, with panniers and gear, and it takes a lot of determination and conditioning. Seeing Floyd Landis win that epic stage in the 2006 Tour de France, I had some small measure of understanding what it takes to do that.

Then you learn that they all doped and think, well, no, I no longer relate to that. It in fact becomes uninspiring, and I do not admire the ability or willingness to wreck your body in that pursuit.

This is incredibly naive.

I played for what could only be considered major national sports programs in high school, and also, to a slightly lesser extent in college. There is competition. There is pressure to be the best, and even in some utopian environment where doping had never been invented, someone is the best, and everyone else is less than them. Almost everyone doped.

As a result, those who are driven to be the best in an environment where winners are glorified (and they always will be), but are not, will always seek an advantage as the rewards are both Maslowian and monetary.

You cannot uninvent doping, and there are, and always will be, 100 chemists looking for ways to help athletes cheat for every one who looks to fight it.

All your particular crusade does is work to delegitimize every act of sport we've seen for the last 35 years, and will see for the next 200.

As to your quips about Cobb... I'm going to shatter your reality. Players in the early part of the century all flocked to a muscle tonic which was reknowned for showing "real results". A sample, tested years later, revealed a substance which would be defined as a PED today . The players were ingesting horse testosterone.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:02 pm 
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I still don't get the hatred for Pete Rose. He bet on himself to win... so what?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:15 pm 
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There are some things the MLB and the writers who put the players in the hall will never forgive.

Why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_Scandal

That is one thing I have never understood. The Baseball writers have too much power over who gets into the hall. Really, it kinda pisses me off.

Jack Morris was one of if not the best big game pitcher in the 80's. His stats are on par with just about anyone else. Yet he will never get in. Why? The **** writers hate him. I will admit, he was kind of a dick when he was a player but that was just him.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:37 pm 
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I'm just going to quote someone whose opinion on sports, competition, success and the human potential I high in high regard:

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People that who get locked into a vision, that's it. That's their drive. That's their passion. Critics don't matter, this don't matter. They're going to do whatever it **** takes to be the best at what they do. Most people in society will never understand that because they've never had passion about anything.
- Dave Tate

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 Post subject: Re: Lance
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:33 am 
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The problem that presents itself strongest to me concerns simply the substances that have (or are very likely to have) some non-insignificant amount of negative effects.

I know a person who was in WWE. Not exactly a big name wrestler, but in it enough to be working once in awhile around those that were. He knew a lot of the wrestlers (incidentally, he related how Chris Benoit would always happily talk about his kids) and firsthand saw how rampant some substances were used.

Professional wrestling isn't a competition -- I know that. But its physical toll is greater than most of the "real" sports. From what I gather from him and some other sources... you can't be a professional wrestler for all that long if you don't take steroids. The body just can't take it.

Essentially, if you want to become a standard name in professional wrestling, you have to be willing to use substances that have pretty serious long-term health risks.

I extend that argument to other sports, though it ends up working in various ways depending on the sport. In the case of steroids, the physical abuse the body takes varies greatly from sport to sport and so its necessity and efficacy varies. But I don't think it's too important to get bogged down in the details on a sport-by-sport basis. I merely ponder about the basic argument: how acceptable should it be, if ever, for society to essentially require long-term health negatives for any athlete who wants to be in the premier league of his or her sport? Does it come down to the degree of the negative or is that irrelevant?

If there aren't any significant risks or permanent side-effects, then it's no different than any other sort of new-found science. Exercise and nutrition advances alone have today's MLB players in a category well beyond that of players in Babe Ruth's era, so any purity in terms of comparing back that far in the past have gone out the window decades ago.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:35 pm 
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Müs wrote:
I still don't get the hatred for Pete Rose. He bet on himself to win... so what?

I don't know why I bother coming back to these threads, but ... In Rose's case you can argue, but probably never prove, that the pressure of winning might have led him to alter his strategy or influence his moves in ways that could harm one of his players. Say he bet on his team - since he wasn't just betting on himself - to win one day, but his starter just doesn't have it. But, say his bullpen is shot (maybe because he wore it out trying to win the day before) - does he leave the guy in longer than he might otherwise, hoping he can keep his team in the game, possibly leading to injury? Is that fair to the player?

And, Rynar, the only reason I mentioned Ty Cobb was not that he was clean - hell, he gambled on games and was an ******* - but that his style of play doesn't demand that players bulk up like gorillas to hit home runs. That was my point. As a baseball fan, I simply don't understand the fetishization of home runs. Sure, I understand and admire the power of making good contact and sending a ball 400 feet, that's impressive. But it's not the only way to win ball games. People criticize Don Mattingly for bunting too much, playing small ball. I prefer small ball, I guess, and that was my point. PEDs put pressure on the game to be just one thing - hitting home runs, or throwing 100-mph fastballs. It takes away aspects of the game that I enjoy and can relate to. I don't want a lineup with nine Mark McGwire's or Sammy Sosa's on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:02 pm 
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Aethien wrote:
Müs wrote:
I still don't get the hatred for Pete Rose. He bet on himself to win... so what?

I don't know why I bother coming back to these threads, but ... In Rose's case you can argue, but probably never prove, that the pressure of winning might have led him to alter his strategy or influence his moves in ways that could harm one of his players. Say he bet on his team - since he wasn't just betting on himself - to win one day, but his starter just doesn't have it. But, say his bullpen is shot (maybe because he wore it out trying to win the day before) - does he leave the guy in longer than he might otherwise, hoping he can keep his team in the game, possibly leading to injury? Is that fair to the player?


Valid point there. I dunno, I don't get a lot of baseball, its not my thing really. I want every player and the coach to be giving 110% and doing everything in their power to win a game. I just don't think what Pete did was wrong at all.

If he was betting on his team to *lose* though, and did so by throwing games... crucify his ***. But sayin "Hey, I got a grand says we beat these ****, cause we're awesome!" I actually like that kind of balls.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:39 am 
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Yeah, I've often thought that, too, that betting on his team to win wasn't such a bad thing. But, thinking it through, I can see why baseball wants to keep gambling out of the game. What happens if someone decides to mess with him, and pay someone on his team to throw the game? It really does just open a big can of worms that's best left in the fridge.

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