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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:05 am 
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Be careful if you drive a truck in Los Angeles...

http://m.nbclosangeles.com/nbclosangeles/pm_107879/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=dZjBzBRX

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Women Shot by Police Were Delivering Newspapers SAMANTHA TATA and JASON KANDEL 02/08/2013 2:14 AM

Two women delivering newspapers in Torrance suffered gunshot wounds and another person was nearly shot Thursday after all three were mistaken by skittish police officers for an ex-LAPD officer wanted in connection with a deadly rampage apparently targeting law enforcement and their families.

All three innocent victims were driving in dark-colored pickup trucks that matched the description of former Officer Christopher Dorner’s, police said. Authorities called the shootings a "case of mistaken identity."

In a lengthy manifesto, Dorner names several former colleagues as possible targets.

Police were posted on protective duty outside the home of one of those officers Thursday morning when they became suspicious of a driver moving through the neighborhood, according to Los Angeles Police Department Chief Charlie Beck.

Driving a blue pickup truck with its lights off, the newspaper carriers slowly approached the officer’s house before dawn. Police believed Dorner had arrived.

Officers opened fire on the truck, which was riddled with more than 15 bullet holes through the back windshield and tailgate.

The shooting happened at 5:20 a.m. in the 19500 block of Redbeam Avenue, police said. One woman was struck in the hand and is expected to recover; the other was shot in the back and her condition was unknown late Thursday. Both were taken to the hospital.

Just two blocks away and 25 minutes later, Torrance police shot another driver travelling in a pickup truck.

While responding to the first officer-involved shooting, a Torrance police cruiser collided with a truck that resembled Doran’s. The incident occurred near Beryl Street and Flagler Lane in Redondo Beach, on the border with Torrance.

"Shortly thereafter, shots were fired," said Sgt. Chris Roosen, with Torrance Police Department. "The officers believed that the person involved was Christopher Dorner."

The civilian driver missed the gunfire that came through the windshield of the truck, which was penetrated by at least three bullets.

Neither shooting involved Dorner, 33, who remains at large, according to police.

Roosen said police had reason to believe Dorner was headed to an officer’s home close to where the shootings happened.

"We believe that he was on the 105 Freeway and off at Sepulveda," Roosen said. "So we believe, yes, he was coming to this area."

A neighbor said she’d seen at least eight squad cars staked out near the officer’shome. Another said he rattled but understood the officers’ actions.

"It’s scary but, I mean, I could imagine, if you have a high-ranking officer that is in the neighborhood and a vehicle that matches that description and the killings that are going on, I could see how it’d be easy to jump to a conclusion," said resident Dan Lankford.

Twelve hours after the first shooting, police were still on the scene where several evidence markers dotted the residential street.

The frenzied manhunt for Dorner – whose chilling 11,000-word manifesto names several of his former colleagues as targets – has Southern California law enforcement on edge as they try to stop the man accused of killing three people, including an on-duty police officer.

A 34-year-old Riverside police officer was killed while on duty in an early-morning ambush Thursday, Beck said. A 27-year-old officer was wounded in the attack, which police have linked to Dorner.

Dorner is also accused of killing Monica Quan, 28, and her fiancé, Keith Lawrence, 27. They were found slumped over in their car Sunday at an apartment complex in Irvine and an autopsy found the newly engaged couple died of multiple gunshot wounds.

Quan's father was the first Asian-American to become an LAPD captain, and also worked on the Asian Gang Task Force.

In his manifesto, Dorner repeatedly refers to a Randy Quan as being involved in his firing.

"I never had the opportunity to have a family of my own, I'm terminating yours. Quan, [name removed], [name removed] and BOR members Look your wives/husbands and surviving children directly in the face and tell them the truth as to why your children are dead," the manifesto read, in part.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:14 am 
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It's inaccurate to say they were "running wild"; they weren't running anywhere, they were posted at a specific point to protect against a lunatic threatening to go on a rampage, and who is believed to have already killed 3 people.

That said, they were obviously not properly trained on how to conduct this sort of duty, and this was the result.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:26 am 
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When did shoot first, ask questions later become SOP for LA cops?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:44 am 
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Around about the time they realized they could get away with murder.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:24 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It's inaccurate to say they were "running wild"; they weren't running anywhere, they were posted at a specific point to protect against a lunatic threatening to go on a rampage, and who is believed to have already killed 3 people.

That said, they were obviously not properly trained on how to conduct this sort of duty, and this was the result.


I think mag dumping on a truck goes a lot farther than "not properly trained". Its attempted murder. I'm going to watch and see what they don't get charged with.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Ok, no, it is not attempted murder, and no, it has nothing to do with them realizing they could "get away with murder."

Now, it was a case of "Shoot first and ask questions later". However, it isn't a case of it becoming "SOP" either' one event in highly unusual circumstances does not an SOP make.

The circumstances were that they were protecting a residence of a person who had specifically been threatened, and had known intelligence about the threat; specifically what vehicle he was driving, the fact that he was well trained, and had evidently already killed 3 people. In addition to that, we have the fact that the newspaper vehicle was, inexplicably, driving around with its lights off.

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Driving a blue pickup truck with its lights off, the newspaper carriers slowly approached the officer’s house before dawn.


Now, that does not somehow make it ok to shoot up the pickup truck. Let me explain why, sicne we have the usual "ZOMG THEY THINK THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH MURDER!!" rather than actual thought going on.

Let's pretend for a minute that the pickup actually did contain Dorner. Would it have been ok to shoot it up at the first sign of him? No. It would not. The fact that it was some dumbasses delivering newspapers with their lights off does not somehow make it any worse. If it had been Dorner, he would have been shot at a point where he was not presenting any active threat. There is no telling what he might have done. He might have fled, he might even have not noticed the officers and been surprised and arrested successfully. We can't know, but even if it had been him, simply shooting him on sight would isn't acceptable.

The problem arose because the officers were terrified of this guy, and that is because he represented a threat outside the scope of police training. Police are not soldiers; they do not normally defend static positions where a known threat is going to try to kill them. For police officers, danger is always out there but it's more of a case of it appearing by surprise from one out of a thousand similar incidents. The one drunk driver that has a gun and doesn't want to go to jail, or the day some unobservant robber walks into the gas station while they're getting a Coke from the fridge and tries to stick up the teller.

Because of that, police are used to being in what we call a "yellow alert" state when working; you're paying attention to your surroundings, but still relaxed because there is no threat.

Police are not used to a threat that they know in advance is coming. They are not trained for that. That's the job of the military; incidentally it's also why soldiers do poorly at law enforcement; they are trained to deal with a known threat where the unknown is really what the threat is going to do. This is the line insurgents try to skirt, but I digress.

The effect of this duty posting and this information on these officers was to jack them into a "red" (there's a threat) state and leave them there for hours, but without a threat to deal with. It is therefore hardly surprising that they reacted the way they did when some idiot drove down the street with no lights. That doesn't make it ok; they still should know better than to shoot without a threat actually presented. That's basic firearms training.

The point, however, is that this is not a case of cops just shooting people for the hell of it because they thought they could, no matter how many stupid one liners Coro wants to post. As to the article, the police administration is clearly trying to cover its own ***. What do we call a department that hires murderous lunatics, and people that can't follow a basic precept of "don't shoot until you see an actual threat"? We call them incompetent. Yes, these officers should be punished, but it is not a matter of observing what happens to them and deciding ahead of time it's going to be a relative slap on the wrist. What we need to see is who above them gets fired.. because someone should, and it's not the Lieutenant or Sergeant that was in charge of them that night.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:16 pm 
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Just for the sake of accuracy, the second shooting was City of Torrance police, not LAPD. Torrance is one of our little suburbs/sprawled entities around here, of which there are many. I can drive to five or six separate towns in about 15 minutes here, if I want.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:06 pm 
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This particular shooting aside, the reason for it is the rogue ex-cop. He's ex-military and ex-cop, and in his manifesto he pledged to 'bring warfare' to his colleagues and their families. An extremely dangerous guy.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:20 am 
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So let me get this right.

Diamondeye threatens the glade with a manifesto.He shoots Khross and breaks 2 doombots. Elmo and I pull a guard shift at RDs house, keeping an eye out for DEs pink Prius with the tribal decal across the back.
A faded red Nissan leaf rolls down the street and I let forth thunder crafted from the hands of John Moses Browning, but shoot two Asian ladies doing their job.

Now at what point as a civilian do I get to go to work, sit at a desk and collect a paycheck while Uncle Fester reviews my case and gives it the blue stamp of approval?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:28 pm 
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On a side note, I have never seen DE, but I do enjoy the visual of him in a pink Prius.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:13 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
So let me get this right.

Diamondeye threatens the glade with a manifesto.He shoots Khross and breaks 2 doombots. Elmo and I pull a guard shift at RDs house, keeping an eye out for DEs pink Prius with the tribal decal across the back.
A faded red Nissan leaf rolls down the street and I let forth thunder crafted from the hands of John Moses Browning, but shoot two Asian ladies doing their job.

Now at what point as a civilian do I get to go to work, sit at a desk and collect a paycheck while Uncle Fester reviews my case and gives it the blue stamp of approval?


I understand the "sit at a desk and get paid" is the only way for the police dept to actually investigate without running afoul of the Fifth Amendment. If it's something you could face charges for, they can't force you to answer questions about the incident until the criminal process is finished because you'd be incriminating yourself.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:37 pm 
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Then why would I be sitting in a very small, very tightly locked room if I did exactly what those cops did?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:49 am 
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I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be denied bail in the situation you described.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:21 am 
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I have to review a case? screw that, I am heading to my union rep to file a claim about stress and harrasment!

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:54 am 
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http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 5268.story

Let me know when it gets to "running wild" stage. I do like how some comments refer to him as Fudge Dredd.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:15 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be denied bail in the situation you described.


So what you're saying is that the cops went through due processed, were accused of attempted murder, arraigned, and then bail was set and posted by the department?

If so, I'm fine with it, but my understanding is they didn't go through the normal process as they would have for any other citizen.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:43 am 
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They don't go through the same process as for any other citizen because for any other citizen there is not the question of whether or not they were acting within the scope of their law enforcement authority.

Even if they are not found guilty of an actual crime, they can still lose their jobs over the incident. That's administrative, not a criminal action, so the rules for both have to be observed, and oh by the way, there's due process for that, too. As a civilian, if your employer fires you over an arrest, there are recourses you have as well; they're just different because you're employed in the private sector. We, you know, limit the power of the government to arbitrarily fire its employees.

So quit whining that they're getting it. Your complaint amounts to "I'm outraged that the polcice have not been summarily pronounced guilty based on my view of the facts."

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:38 am 
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NephyrS wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be denied bail in the situation you described.


So what you're saying is that the cops went through due processed, were accused of attempted murder, arraigned, and then bail was set and posted by the department?

If so, I'm fine with it, but my understanding is they didn't go through the normal process as they would have for any other citizen.


It's not attempted murder. This would be clear-cut manslaughter if someone had actually died, since noone did I'm not even sure what it would be. Reckless endangerment?


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:56 pm 
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The question I still have is why they didn't definitely identify the vehicle or suspect before opening fire? I find it hard to believe that two ladies delivering newspapers were acting in a threatening manner to the officers.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:13 pm 
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http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me ... 4028.story

At least 7 officers shot, spraying bullets into the truck and apparently other cars like something from Montie's fantasy. No statement if they even issued a warning.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:19 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
The question I still have is why they didn't definitely identify the vehicle or suspect before opening fire? I find it hard to believe that two ladies delivering newspapers were acting in a threatening manner to the officers.


Not intentionally, although a truck with no lights on when you are expecting someone in a truck to attack you is threatening.. not in a "shoot them" way but in a "get ready, this might be it" kind of way. However, the ladies in the truck didn't know that.

As for why.. well, because they were scared. People do that, and despite the demands of some of the glade, police are not perfect. They have normal human reactions to things like threats, and that isn't going to change no matter how loudly some people try to claim the "public trust" should make reality change itself.

That is not an excuse for their actions; when it comes down to it, they should not have fired, and that's that.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:23 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
NephyrS wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be denied bail in the situation you described.


So what you're saying is that the cops went through due processed, were accused of attempted murder, arraigned, and then bail was set and posted by the department?

If so, I'm fine with it, but my understanding is they didn't go through the normal process as they would have for any other citizen.


It's not attempted murder. This would be clear-cut manslaughter if someone had actually died, since noone did I'm not even sure what it would be. Reckless endangerment?


Attempted voluntary manslaughter. The cops clearly thought that their target was the guy making the threats, and they were clearly trying to kill him in what they perceived (incorrectly) as self-defense. Based on the facts as the officers perceived them at the time (as far as we know) they were trying to kill someone they unreasonably perceived as a threat. The fact that they were mistaken as to the actual identity of the person is really pretty irrelevant, because even if they had been right about who it was, they could not shoot him just because he approached with his lights off.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:24 pm 
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I assume you folks aren't getting a daily diet of this like I am, but apparently they heard on the radio that "he might be headed your way." Almost sounds like a telephone-game thing. They were guarding the house of someone mentioned in the "manifesto," apparently. What's odd to me is the picture of the truck the two women were in - a lot of bullets fired from behind it. One account I saw said that someone farther up the street started shooting, and then everyone else farther down opened up, too.

Still frickin' cold up in the mountains, wonder how prepared he was - or if he was actually even up there. Until I heard that the truck had a damaged axle, implying that it broken down up there, I was wondering if it was a decoy.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:32 am 
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He's looking like he's doing just fine...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/christopher-do ... d=18457978

The image apparently came from a Hotel in Orange County. Not sure what the timeline is.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:20 am 
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Since police are less likely to be prosecuted for the same action and if prosecuted less likely to be found guilty and if found guilty likely to serve a less stern sentence than a civilian for undertaking the same actions it decreases the disincentive to use force instead of exhausting other options. Police, as all people, are simply responding to the incentives and disincentives of their specific situation. The system we have crafted is flawed.

Statistically speaking if we want a safer world disarm the police and make CCW's cheaper and less paperwork.

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