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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:40 am 
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See what I did there?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... icket.html


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Through all his incarnations, Doctor Who has fought selflessly to ensure the survival of all manner of life forms across the Universe.

But now an international group of academics has branded the heroic Time Lord ‘thunderingly racist’.

The Doctor’s new foes claim that his dismissive attitude towards black companions, his contempt for ‘primitive’ people, and even his passion for cricket are all proof of a reactionary ‘whiteness’ pervading his adventures.

Their concerns are published in a new book, Doctor Who And Race, which says the BBC programme is based in attitudes ‘that continue to subjugate people of colour’.

But fans dismiss such criticisms as ‘groundless’ and ‘ridiculous’.

One of the more bizarre theories is offered by Amit Gupta, an American professor, who argues that Peter Davison’s cricket-loving incarnation of the character in the Eighties was thinly disguised nostalgia for the British Empire. He wrote: ‘[He] portrayed the amateur English cricketer of the late 19th Century when the game was characterised by both racial and class distinctions.

‘Cricket also had a role in maintaining the status of British imperialism through the exercise of soft power as it was successfully inculcated by the colonial elites. Davison’s cricketing Doctor once again saw the BBC using Who to promote a racial and class nostalgia that had already outlived its validity.'

Several of the 23 contributors to the book lament the failure to cast a black or Asian actor as the Doctor. And in earlier series, white actors were cast as other ethnicities. Singled out for criticism is a 1977 storyline, The Talons Of Weng- Chiang, set in Victorian times and featuring the white actor John Bennett as a Chinese villain.

There is also an attack on the ‘second-class’ treatment of black characters such as Martha Jones in more recent episodes. A feminist contributor with the pen name Fire Fly, says the Doctor’s relationship with Martha, who was played by Freema Agyeman, is proof of the ‘white perspective’ of the series.

She singles out a 2007 episode set in Elizabethan London when Martha voices her fears that she might be sold into slavery, only to be told by David Tennant’s Doctor that she should ‘walk about like you own the place. It works for me’.

Fire Fly wonders why the Doctor will depose tyrannical alien regimes but will not challenge human slavery. And she claims the exchange ‘betrays the ignorance of writers about historical racial violence and contemporary white privilege’.

There is further criticism of the introduction and Adolf Hitler as a character last year, which was condemned as ‘comic-book’ and ‘slapstick’, and did nothing to increase understanding of the Holocaust.

The Doctor also dismisses as primitive any civilisation that doesn’t share his belief in scientific progress – which the academic critics say is a very ‘West European’ attitude. In the show’s very first story, William Hartnell’s Doctor compares the disbelief of his new companions when they first enter the Tardis with the Red Indian ‘whose savage mind disbelieved steam trains’.

And the introduction of the ‘savage’ – and scantily-clad – companion Leela in the 1970s is offered as further proof of the Time Lord’s inherent racism since she was treated as being ‘more primitive than us’.

Australian academic Lindy Orthia, who compiled the anthology, concluded: ‘The biggest elephant in the room is the problem privately nursed by many fans of loving a TV show when it is thunderingly racist.’

But fans dismissed her criticisms. Sebastian Clark, editor of Doctor Who Online, said the show ‘embraced rather than divided’. He added: ‘I think the suggestion the show is racist is ridiculous.

Doctor treated Martha Jones no differently from the way he treated any other character.’

And the BBC said: ‘Doctor Who has a strong track record of diverse casting among both regular and guest cast. Freema Agyeman became the first black companion and Noel Clarke starred in a major role for five years [Mickey Smith].

‘Reflecting the diversity of the UK is a duty of the BBC, and casting on Doctor Who is colour-blind. It is always about the best actors for the roles.’

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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:43 am 
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Get a life people.

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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:48 am 
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Oi.

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The Doctor’s new foes claim that his dismissive attitude towards black companions,

He has a dismissive attitude toward everyone. He's the bloody Doctor. "I'd say you're extremely clever, but I'm in the room."

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his contempt for ‘primitive’ people,

Humans are primitive compared to Time Lords. Yes, that includes white humans; our most advanced civilizations are paltry accomplishments compared to the TLs. The Doctor values knowledge and reason; why wouldn't primitive cultures be silly to him?

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and even his passion for cricket are all proof of a reactionary ‘whiteness’ pervading his adventures.

As best I know, only the fifth Doctor had a thing for cricket, and we're 30 years on from him now. Also, cricket is racist?

These are just folks trying to drum up book sales with good old-fashioned outrage. Nonsense.


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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:23 am 
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There is further criticism of the introduction and Adolf Hitler as a character last year, which was condemned as ‘comic-book’ and ‘slapstick’, and did nothing to increase understanding of the Holocaust.


I particularly love this line - So it doesn't increase understanding of the Holocaust, an event that is entirely over, and has been for almost 70 years now, and in a large part due to the total destruction of the regime responsible for it... partly due to the contributions of the same culture these idiots are describing as racist.

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A feminist contributor with the pen name Fire Fly, says the Doctor’s relationship with Martha, who was played by Freema Agyeman, is proof of the ‘white perspective’ of the series.


Translation: "I'm just another ignorant scrub writer with a chip on my shoulder, so I'll adopt a pen name to add an air of mystery and saying what no one wants me to say to what I write.. Never mind that no one wants me to say it because it's total nonsense."

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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:36 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
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There is further criticism of the introduction and Adolf Hitler as a character last year, which was condemned as ‘comic-book’ and ‘slapstick’, and did nothing to increase understanding of the Holocaust.


I particularly love this line - So it doesn't increase understanding of the Holocaust, an event that is entirely over, and has been for almost 70 years now, and in a large part due to the total destruction of the regime responsible for it... partly due to the contributions of the same culture these idiots are describing as racist.

What's more, taking the piss out of Hitler (as the episode did: the Doctor's companion punched him and threw him into a cupboard) is and has been the best way to undermine any remaining threat from his ideology. It's worked since The Producers, and will continue to do so. Turning him into a comedic punching bag removes the "legacy" aspect of his reign of terror.

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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 12:40 pm 
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Unfortunately, the sort of people who write this sort of thing don't want to eliminate any legacy of Hitler's ideology. For that matter, they don't want to eliminate any other discriminatory legacies either - complaining about them is how they try to be relevant.

This is most obvious with the Holocaust because, while we can debate and argue the degree to which various other forms of racism and sexism have been reduced or eliminated or not over the years, it's really pretty hard to argue that the Holocaust is still going on.

Since there's no room at all for debate on that point, this sort of person tries to portray the Holocaust in isolation from the world events around it, in order to create the impression that the world simply didn't care or tacitly wanted it to proceed. Certainly, there were people outside of Germany that were probably pretty supportive of the ideology of Hitler, but they were not the ones calling the shots in Britain or France or the U.S.

Allied policy in regard to Hitler was far from optimal in the 1930s, but it was driven by pretty much any concern other than "gee maybe he'll eliminate the Jews for us." By the time the enormity of what was going on was fully understood, WWII was in full swing, and at that point the death camps were not going to be shut down any sooner than the point where Allied tanks were at their front gates. (I won't bore you with explaining again why this was true, but I can if anyone wants.)

At any rate, that's the reason for this sort of writing - in order to use the Holocaust as a tool to beat <insert political target here> with, it has to be divorced from its historical context. If it isn't, then it has no power as a source of guilt; anyone can point to the totality of events and demonstrate that preventing it would have simply required different historical circumstances, and ending it sooner under the circumstances that did exist simply was out of the question.

If it is divorced, however, it becomes this otherworldly force where all you need is a demagogue and some white people and *bam* ZOMG GENOCIDE!! You can shift blame for what happened off of Hitler, his cronies, and the masses that listened to him, and apply it to everyone else in the world.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:12 am 
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Of course the doctor is acist - he HATES Daleks and cyberwotsis


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 8:32 am 
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"acists"... What's that, a prejudicial dislike of good pilots?

:)

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:37 am 
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FarSky wrote:
These are just folks trying to drum up book sales with good old-fashioned outrage. Nonsense.


Spoken like only someone who has never encountered a "social justice warrior" can.

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I assure you, these people are quite sincere in their insanity. The government prof I had last summer was a walking, talking SJW stereotype, right down to using the "power + prejudice" cliche verbatim as a point in her curriculum.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:05 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Fire Fly wonders why the Doctor will depose tyrannical alien regimes but will not challenge human slavery.

DC Comics beat her to the punch by about 40 years:

Image

As for the rest, most of the examples from the 60s and 70s (and probably even some from the 80s) probably do reflect actual prejudice / ethnocentrism, but that's just an artifact of the era in which they were made, not some peculiar problem of Dr. Who.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:20 am 
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Well, remember, there's been no progress at all since the 1960's in terms of race relations.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:21 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Well, remember, there's been no progress at all since the 1960's in terms of race relations.


There appears to have been some significant regress in some ways, actually. But we wouldn't know that because we're tyrannical nazi crackers.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:26 am 
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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Well, remember, there's been no progress at all since the 1960's in terms of race relations.


There appears to have been some significant regress in some ways, actually. But we wouldn't know that because we're tyrannical nazi crackers.


Regress is unsurprising when improvement in race relations would mean loss of that stick to beat one's opponents with.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:36 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Well, remember, there's been no progress at all since the 1960's in terms of race relations.

There appears to have been some significant regress in some ways, actually. But we wouldn't know that because we're tyrannical nazi crackers.

Regress is unsurprising when improvement in race relations would mean loss of that stick to beat one's opponents with.

And when the dominant group feels they've done enough to right the earlier wrongs before the lingering effects of those wrongs have actually been eliminated.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:41 am 
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The LGBT community as a whole is in denial about the human race as a sexually reproducing species.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:50 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
And when the dominant group feels they've done enough to right the earlier wrongs before the lingering effects of those wrongs have actually been eliminated.



Well, perhaps they should seek redress from the racial and cultural groups that have done the most harm to black people throughout history, including being primarily responsible for American slavery:

Africans. While the complicity of African monarchs and chieftains in selling their own people as slave stock enabled the entire slave trade, it doesn't even begin to compare to what's been done in Africa since then.

The people most responsible for keeping Africans down ... are Africans..

You don't hear white people demanding reparations for millenia of abuses as slave labor at the hands of feudal lords.

Continuing to bring race up and trying to redress injustices from multiple generations ago are only perpetuating racism and continuing the problem. The only way to solve it, is to utterly ignore race. As long as people continue to treat "race" as somehow more significant than the minor cosmetic difference that it is, racism will be a problem. Stop differentiating and everything is fixed.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
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Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:57 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Regress is unsurprising when improvement in race relations would mean loss of that stick to beat one's opponents with.

And when the dominant group feels they've done enough to right the earlier wrongs before the lingering effects of those wrongs have actually been eliminated.[/quote]

This might be more relevant if the "dominant" group's feelings weren't simply dismissed out of hand, or if the responsibility to remove "lingering effects" were even theirs in the first place. The job of the dominant group is to change the rules to make the playing field level. The job of the minority is to start playing on the level field instead of constantly claiming it's still not level in order to tilt it their way, or even out of a sense of "we deserve a time of unfairness in our direction in order to counter the time when it was the other way."

Or, to put it another way, when the dominant group feels they've done enough, it isn't up to the minority group to decide if that's true or not.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The LGBT community as a whole is in denial about the human race as a sexually reproducing species.

That's only because the Jesus-folk are too busy opposing human cloning and embryonic manipulation as part of their gay-hating agenda.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Talya wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
And when the dominant group feels they've done enough to right the earlier wrongs before the lingering effects of those wrongs have actually been eliminated.

Continuing to bring race up and trying to redress injustices from multiple generations ago are only perpetuating racism and continuing the problem.

Like I said.....


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 12:21 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
This might be more relevant if the "dominant" group's feelings weren't simply dismissed out of hand, or if the responsibility to remove "lingering effects" were even theirs in the first place. The job of the dominant group is to change the rules to make the playing field level.

Totally agree with the first point and concede that the second point is a very murky issue. I disagree on the final point, though. It's not enough to simply refrain from doing additional harm going forward; you have to redress the harm that's been done to some degree. I'm not even talking about affirmative action here. For example, consider the discriminatory housing policies of state, local and federal governments that continued up through the 60s and 70s and directly contributed to black people being ripped off and ghettoized en masse. It's not enough to just stop the official discrimination after the systematic impoverishment of black people has been accomplished; you actually have to try to undo some of the damage that was done. Since it was a diffuse and systemic harm, rather than a particularized one that can be easily traced to individuals, the only way to do that is via generalized programs like spending money to revitalize affected neighborhoods, provide subsidized home loans, etc.


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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:13 pm 
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Actually no, you do NOT need to undo any of the damage that was done, and doing so is a terrible idea. You will never do enough of it, and any attempt to stop "undoing damage" is portrayed as a return to the policies that caused the damage, or even as damaging in and of itself.

Harm occurs to individuals, not to groups. Trying to "undo damage" contributes to the idea that the damage occurred to the group, and thus that any individual that isn't sufficiently helped constitutes continuing group damage. This leads to racial problems in perpetuity that are never effectively dealt with.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 1:21 pm 
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On the other hand, the thing RD did have right is that attempting to revitalize certain neighborhoods or offer subsidies to certain demographics is a legitimate argument that may have merit.

The problem is that RD is framing it as a matter of targetting racial demographics, not wealth ones. Revitalizing poor white, hispanic, and Native American neighborhoods offer the same kinds of benefits as revitalizing poor black ones. Ditto for offering subsidies to promote home ownership among the poor of non-black families as well as black ones.

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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Nitefox wrote:
See what I did there?


So I tried this out. Paraphrasing a bit, as I can't remember fully:

AK: So it turns out, Who's racist.
Non-Sci Fi Fan: Who?
AK: Supposedly.
NSFF: Supposedly what?
AK: Who's racist.
NSFF: ....
AK: ....
NSFF: [racist coworker]?
AK: No, the doctor.
NSFF: What doctor???
AK: Who.
NSFF: Doctor WHO?
AK: That's right.
NSFF: Ugh, **** off, I don't care. Leave me alone.
AK: :(


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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 3:50 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
The LGBTQ community as a whole is in denial about the human race as a sexually reproducing species.
You forgot a letter.

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PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 4:35 pm 
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Aren't LGBT's already Q? Or is there another definition I'm missing?

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