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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:46 pm 
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I was reading about this topic because my local governments are implementing variable rate toll lanes (as a mechanism to increase my taxes) using automated license plate readers for billing.

It got me to thinking about the data records associated with this, how long they are kept, and who can obtain them, and under what circumstances.

The cops are tracking my car—and yours

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013 ... and-yours/

This is just a small snippet from the article. The rest can be found at the link...

arstechnica.com wrote:
OAKLAND, CA—The last time the Oakland Police Department (OPD) saw me was on May 6, 2013 at 6:38:25pm.

My car was at the corner of Mandana Blvd. and Grand Ave., just blocks away from the apartment that my wife and I moved out of about a month earlier. It’s an intersection I drive through fairly frequently even now, and the OPD’s own license plate reader (LPR) data bears that out. One of its LPRs—Unit 1825—captured my car passing through that intersection twice between late April 2013 and early May 2013.

I have no criminal record, have committed no crime, and am not (as far as I know) under investigation by the OPD or any law enforcement agency. Since I first moved to Oakland in 2005, I’ve been pulled over by the OPD exactly once—for accidentally not making a complete stop while making a right-hand turn at a red light—four years ago. Nevertheless, the OPD’s LPR system captured my car 13 times between April 29, 2012 and May 6, 2013 at various points around the city, and it retained that data. My car is neither wanted nor stolen. The OPD has no warrant on me, no probable cause, and no reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing, yet it watches where I go. Is that a problem?

LPR deployments—which are rapidly expanding throughout the country to cities and towns big and small—help law enforcement officers scan license plates extremely quickly (typically, 60 plates per second) and run those against a “hot list” of cars that are wanted or stolen. The cameras themselves can be hidden inside infrastructure or mounted onto squad cars. Law enforcement agencies love them. The federal government is even encouraging local law enforcement (through federal grants) to purchase more for several thousand dollars apiece. But LPRs aren't just looking for stolen cars; they capture every plate that they see. In some cases, they retain that plate, location, date, and time information... indefinitely.

Sid Heal is a recently retired commander who evaluated technology during his decades-long tenure at the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. He's now a law enforcement consultant and told Ars last year that he's been working with LPRs since 2005.

"It was one of the few technologies that did everything that they said it did as well as they said it did," he said. "It staggered the imagination."

Why does OPD hold records of my car that are more than a year old? Was that data ever accessed by or shared with the Northern California Regional Intelligence Center (NCRIC), a federally funded "fusion center" based in San Francisco? What about other federal agencies? Since asking on July 1, 2013, the OPD has yet to respond to my follow-up questions.

In May 2013, we wrote about a lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) against the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) and the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department (LASD), two of the largest local law enforcement agencies in the country. The plaintiffs asked for “all ALPR data collected or generated between 12:01am on August 12, 2012 and 11:59pm on August 19, 2012, including at a minimum, the license plate number, date, time, and location information for each license plate recorded.”

That case is still pending, but it sparked this idea: why not find out what data exists on my own car? Under the California Public Records Act, I should be able to gain access to my own data—but it turns out that getting information from regional law enforcement agencies is an exercise in both patience and frustration. I’ve spent the last two months trying to track down precisely what LPR data various law enforcement agencies around the San Francisco Bay Area (and a few in Southern California) have captured on my vehicle over the last year. This is uncommon; even here in the Bay Area with its privacy-conscious and tech-savvy users, few people appear to know just how much data the police hold on them. In many cases, I was one of just a few people (and sometimes the only person) to request such data about myself. This is what I found.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:40 pm 
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There's a toll highway in southern Ontario that uses these (if you don't have a transponder) and has done so for years.

It's privately run, though. And way overpriced. I never use it.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:42 pm 
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The goverment has proven itself untrustworthy with the data methods it has. That does not make me desirous to give them more

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:03 pm 
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This is actually super widespread.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:24 am 
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Is there something like a privacy screen that you could use - ya know, like paranoid people on airplanes use? :D

Maybe I should develop or market one. Make it so that to the naked eye, it's always readable, but blanks out your plate for cameras (maybe something to do with the angle ... ).

Would be fun to do on Kickstarter, see how much money rolls in.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:59 am 
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I think there have been some crappy attempts to screen the plates. Didn't mythbusters do a show on this? I think they decided the best way to avoid the plate readers was to go about 150mph or something. Nothing else really worked.

I really don't have a problem with the technology to scan my car license plates for paying a toll or whatever.

My complaint is that these license plate readers are potentially recording my car everywhere it goes, and that data is sitting in some database somewhere. There are no controls over the data whatsoever. In some cases it may be in the possession of the local or federal government. In others it could be a third party contractor. Who can access this data and under what circumstances? How long is it retained?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:00 am 
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You do realize that a private contractor could (leaving aside for now the practical questions about how to do so and how much it would cost) set up cameras all over a city at locations in view of the streets, and scan license plates? They could compile that into a database and sell it to anyone they wanted?

It would be legitimate to object to the government selling or freely handing out this information, but like we discussed in the Zimmerman thread, what you do in public view is public.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:07 am 
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That is true DE however no private entity can force my compliance with it's desires with the courts, police, and/or military. Look at the irs thing. They abused a perfectly legitimate power of the goverment to harass political rivals

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:55 am 
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So? By that logic, we can't have government at all. Anything it does could be abused in some way.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:24 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It would be legitimate to object to the government selling or freely handing out this information, but like we discussed in the Zimmerman thread, what you do in public view is public.


While true, it the "publicness" is only permitted so far as human observation goes. Thus far, the courts have generally held that electronic surveillance (which would include automated license plate readers and the compiling and collating of information thus gathered) to require a warrant on behalf of the government. It seems not at all unreasonable for private entities to have at least some sort of restrictions on them as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:09 pm 
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Where have the courts held that a warrant is required for electronic surveillance of public places?

If you mean attaching GPS devices to cars, the car is a privately-owned object. There's a difference between attaching something to someone and watching.

There isn't anything that says public areas are public only to human observation.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:12 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Where have the courts held that a warrant is required for electronic surveillance of public places?

If you mean attaching GPS devices to cars, the car is a privately-owned object. There's a difference between attaching something to someone and watching.


Except that was only one reason it was decided that way. Alito, Ginsberg, Breyer, and Kagan concurred but stated it was the length of surveillance that mattered rather than the physical object.

DE wrote:
There isn't anything that says public areas are public only to human observation.


Good thing that's not what I said then.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:32 pm 
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DFK! wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Where have the courts held that a warrant is required for electronic surveillance of public places?

If you mean attaching GPS devices to cars, the car is a privately-owned object. There's a difference between attaching something to someone and watching.


Except that was only one reason it was decided that way. Alito, Ginsberg, Breyer, and Kagan concurred but stated it was the length of surveillance that mattered rather than the physical object.

DE wrote:
There isn't anything that says public areas are public only to human observation.


Good thing that's not what I said then.

Yes you did. Its in your very first sentence.

Length (assuming the minutae of a concurrence even holds weight) doesn't apply here. No one is being continuously surveilled.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:10 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
So? By that logic, we can't have government at all. Anything it does could be abused in some way.


Of course not, don't stawman. It does mean that we carefully consider and limit the scope an authority we give to the government.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:27 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
So? By that logic, we can't have government at all. Anything it does could be abused in some way.


Of course not, don't stawman. It does mean that we carefully consider and limit the scope an authority we give to the government.


We can do that. What we can't do is conclude ahead of time that the government is necessarily doing something wrong by doing it. There's a difference between telling government "we don't want you to do that as a matter of public policy" and concluding it's abusive for them to do it in the first place. I don't want government to raise taxes; that doesn't mean that if they do they've somehow done something wrong.

Also, you weren't strawmanned. Your position was extended to its logical conclusion.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:06 pm 
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"We don't want you to do that as a matter of policy" because "we don't trust you with the power" seems legitimate to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:19 pm 
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That's a legitimate reason to demand that the government set public policy in a certain way. Again, however, if the public did not make that objection, there is nothing about this action that inhernetly oversteps any boundaries.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:49 pm 
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There's still legal precedent and rule of law. I'm not sure exactly how they apply to location data. Personally I think it's "unreasonable (to) search" for a person's location unless there is "reasonable" suspicion that person has committed/is committing a crime.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:04 am 
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There isn't any jurisprudence to that effect, however. There isn't any jurisprudence indicating that looking for information available to any ordinary passerby in any way constitutes a search.

The amount of power available to the government is irrelevant. It's a matter of public policy, not of 4th amendment rights. There is no right to be free of government notice.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:09 am 
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It isn't all bad.

Progressive's insurance tracking thing captures and tracks car driving data and apparently it makes the data available to the customers. In this case it provided the key evidence that exonerated him from murder charges.

http://www.wkyc.com/news/article/305179 ... -of-murder

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PARMA HEIGHTS -- A Parma Heights man accused of suffocating his infant daughter is a free man tonight.

A device from Progressive Insurance played a key role in his freedom.

"I was scared. It was a big relief," says Michael Beard.

He stands in the Cuyahoga County Justice Center a free man. Just last week, he faced 15 years to life in prison, accused of suffocating his 7-month-old daughter.

"You never watch your nightmares come to life, right there in front of you. My daughter went limp in my arms," says Beard.

Beard says when he went to visit his daughter at her mom's home at 4:45 in the morning, he found the baby not breathing, panicked and immediately left for the hospital.

But the baby's mom told a different story and Beard found him self accused.

"She told the cops I spent 10 to 15 minutes upstairs in her house with her daughter," says Beard.

Beard was charged with murder a year after his daughter's death. But then he remembered he had the Progressive Snapshot device in his car.

Snapshot records when a driver starts and stops a car, how fast the driver was going, and how many times the driver hit the breaks.

Defense Attorney Michael Cheselka says the records proved Beard's story.

"He turned the car off when he arrived at 4:44, he turned the car on at 4:47. He was only at the house for 3 minutes. That's too short a time to cause the severity of the injuries that the baby was presented with," says Cheselka.

The jury agreed. Beard was acquitted.

"It saved my life," says Beard.

Aside from the Snapshot device, the ruling from the medical examiner's office helped prove Beard's case.

They determined that his daughter had probably slumped in her baby swing, cutting off air to her lungs for a long period of time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:35 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
It would be legitimate to object to the government selling or freely handing out this information, but like we discussed in the Zimmerman thread, what you do in public view is public.


Why would you object to freely handing out this information? If what you do in public is public, shouldn't the government be able to make this database freely available online?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:34 am 
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Amanar wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
It would be legitimate to object to the government selling or freely handing out this information, but like we discussed in the Zimmerman thread, what you do in public view is public.


Why would you object to freely handing out this information? If what you do in public is public, shouldn't the government be able to make this database freely available online?


They can. That doesn't mean people can't simply say "we don't think the government should be in that business." There's a difference between objecting to it as a matter of policy and objecting to it as some sort of impropriety.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:17 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
what you do in public view is public.


This. Anyone could stand on the corner and write down the license plates that go by. The cameras and computers are just a little better at it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:17 pm 
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Vladimirr wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
what you do in public view is public.


This. Anyone could stand on the corner and write down the license plates that go by. The cameras and computers are just a little better at it.



We saw your license plate at this intersection at 6:15 and at this one at 6:20. Based on our calculations you were exceeding the speed limit in order to cover this distance at this time. Enclosed is your fine.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Speeding laws generally require direct observation of the violation.

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