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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:20 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Except for the fact that it isn't when one also accepts the natural explanation at the same time.


That just means you're accepting science and superstition.


Well duh, that's what I said in the first place.

Also, that isn't what superstition means. Superstition specifically refers to ominous or fearful aspects of such beliefs - both by denotation and connotation. I realize you really like that word for some reason, but it isn't a generic term for "any belief in any cause other than the scientific."



Actually, it doesn't require it to be ominous or fearful. (Although that is a secondary definition of superstition.) Superstition is simply the belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:41 pm 
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DE, I don't know where you get your definition for superstition but it's wrong.

Dictionary wrote:
Superstition |ˌso͞opərˈstiSHən|
noun
excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings


Superstitious |ˌso͞opərˈstiSHəs|
adjective
having or showing a belief in superstitions


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:53 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
DE, I don't know where you get your definition for superstition but it's wrong.

Dictionary wrote:
Superstition |ˌso͞opərˈstiSHən|
noun
excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings


Superstitious |ˌso͞opərˈstiSHəs|
adjective
having or showing a belief in superstitions

That's a bit of a narrow definition, too. My definition above was also ripped from a dictionary.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:12 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
DE, I don't know where you get your definition for superstition but it's wrong.

Dictionary wrote:
Superstition |ˌso͞opərˈstiSHən|
noun
excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings


Superstitious |ˌso͞opərˈstiSHəs|
adjective
having or showing a belief in superstitions


Dictionary.com


Quote:
1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
2. a system or collection of such beliefs.
3. a custom or act based on such a belief.
4. irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, especially in connection with religion.
5. any blindly accepted belief or notion.


Also, before anyone starts hooting and hollering about #5, religious belief is not in and itself something people do blindly no matter how much some people might like to pretend that it is.

So no, my definition isn't "wrong" "wrong" is not "comes from a different definition than either Lenas or Taly uses". In fact, my definition is better because it accounts for the word's connotation as well as strict denotations. Like "discrimination" where people point out that the making of any distinction whatsoever is technically a sort of "discrimination" so that they can appear to innocently be simply using the correct term, all the while trying to weigh down something they don't like with the negative associations of the term "discrimination".

And again, the point was that the two things are not mutually exclusive. I don't know why the semantics of the word "superstition" would be important unless it's simply because people think it attaches baggage to things they don't agree with.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:27 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I don't know why the semantics of the word "superstition" would be important...


You're the one that brought it up in the first place:

Diamondeye wrote:
Also, that isn't what superstition means. Superstition specifically refers to ominous or fearful aspects of such beliefs - both by denotation and connotation.


So you point out that the word specifically means one thing, and then manage to show that the definition you're using is an alternate 3 spots down the list.

Diamondeye wrote:
...it isn't a generic term for "any belief in any cause other than the scientific."


It pretty much is. Especially if you want to get into what "definition is better because it accounts for the word's connotation."


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:42 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I don't know why the semantics of the word "superstition" would be important...


You're the one that brought it up in the first place:


No, I'm really not. Talya was the one that brought it up with "well the definition of superstition is blah blah blah" rather than address the point - that accepting scientific explanations and also believing supernatural causes are possible - only to come back 3 posts later and point the same thing out as if I hadn't ever said it in the first place.

Diamondeye wrote:
Also, that isn't what superstition means. Superstition specifically refers to ominous or fearful aspects of such beliefs - both by denotation and connotation.


So you point out that the word specifically means one thing, and then manage to show that the definition you're using is an alternate 3 spots down the list.[/quote]

Except that it isn't. I was using that one along with the first one in the list - hence the underlined part in the first line of the quoted definition. Read a little more carefully next time.

Diamondeye wrote:
Quote:
...it isn't a generic term for "any belief in any cause other than the scientific."


It pretty much is. Especially if you want to get into what "definition is better because it accounts for the word's connotation."


No, it really pretty much isn't, given that scientific and supernatural causes are not mutually exclusive. "Superstition" is normally used to refer to highly discrete, if-then beliefs like "if you break a mirror then you'll have bad luck for 7 years" - which is a disprovable hypothesis. Using it to refer to untestable statements like "God is responsible for the weather being what it is, in ways we can't really discern or understand" has nothing to do with superstition. We will never be in a position to examine the influence of every state of every part of the universe upon every other, placing the statement outside the realm of science to evaluate. It does not call into question the scientific aspects of how weather works, so evaluating it as "superstition" is inherently inaccurate.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:18 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
"Superstition" is normally used to refer to highly discrete, if-then beliefs like "if you break a mirror then you'll have bad luck for 7 years" - which is a disprovable hypothesis.


"If you do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart, you will face hellfire and damnation for all eternity" sounds pretty similar if you chop out your "disprovable hypothesis" crap that has nothing to do with the word or its definition.

So, basically, your superstition is real, so it's not superstition?


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:27 pm 
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Quote:
a widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief.
The above quote was copied from a Google search. Use "define superstition" without the quotation marks as your search phrase.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:26 am 
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Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
"Superstition" is normally used to refer to highly discrete, if-then beliefs like "if you break a mirror then you'll have bad luck for 7 years" - which is a disprovable hypothesis.


"If you do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ into your heart, you will face hellfire and damnation for all eternity" sounds pretty similar if you chop out your "disprovable hypothesis" crap that has nothing to do with the word or its definition.


So.. a disproveable hypothesis - a central aspect of what makes the scientific method the scientific method - suddenly isn't important to whether a question falls within the purview of science?

Your personal incredulity is not an argument. It may 'sound similar' to you, but you're talking about a question that is outside the capacity of science to address. If you're going to say it's 'superstition' on that basis, you may as well just go whole hog and say it's 'heresy' or 'apostasy'.

Go on, it feels good. You want to. You do. Everyone wants to. How dare people think that way?!? How can they just be so... so... wrong!?! They have to be stopped!

Quote:
So, basically, your superstition is real, so it's not superstition?


Circular argument much?

If you claim something is a superstition, it must be one!

You know what Lenas? If it makes you feel better to pretend any belief you want is a 'superstition', you go right on ahead. I'm obviously having a discussion with someone who is getting so worked up over their pet word that they can't even read underlining properly, and who hasn't address my real point - oddly, the same basic point as the OP was about - so you go right on and do whatever lets you reassure yourself.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:24 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
So.. a disproveable hypothesis - a central aspect of what makes the scientific method the scientific method - suddenly isn't important to whether a question falls within the purview of science?


Incorrect. I said that something being a disprovable hypothesis has nothing to do with whether or not it's considered superstitious. You're getting all salty about being called superstitious, but from what I can tell you fit the definition to a T.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:44 pm 
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Nothing in the nature of superstition requires that it be disprovable. As Khross and myself has pointed out, both the common and dictionary definition applies to any belief in supernatural causation to a consequence or event. Therefore, "A deity made the cosmos" is a superstitious belief.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Difference between connotation and denotation. The term superstition is a bit perjorative which is likely why it was used and why DE objects to it.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:31 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
So.. a disproveable hypothesis - a central aspect of what makes the scientific method the scientific method - suddenly isn't important to whether a question falls within the purview of science?


Incorrect. I said that something being a disprovable hypothesis has nothing to do with whether or not it's considered superstitious. You're getting all salty about being called superstitious, but from what I can tell you fit the definition to a T.


Whether something is a disprovable hypothesis has a great deal to do with whether it's a superstition, since something that isn't provable or disprovable in the first place makes no statement about the natural causes of any effect. A superstition attempts to replace a natural or scientifically observable cause with one that is not. In any case, since you don't seem to know what the definition is to begin with, we can pretty much ignore how things seem to you in that regard.

Quote:
Nothing in the nature of superstition requires that it be disprovable. As Khross and myself has pointed out, both the common and dictionary definition applies to any belief in supernatural causation to a consequence or event. Therefore, "A deity made the cosmos" is a superstitious belief.


Khross pointed out no such thing. He only made the unsupported assertion that one definition of 5 from the dictionary website was 'copied from a google search' which is neither supportable nor relevant.

You also didn't cite any dictionary definition - Lenas did, but he didn't bother to say what "dictionary" he got it from. So far, I'm the only one to cite a verifiable source.

The simple fact is that the definition specifically relates to beliefs in ominous portents and various actions in that regard for actual physical events. It does not mean "any supernatural belief at all." What you are trying to do is get any and all beliefs lumped together under one label so you can treat them as all being equal - i.e. the practice of throwing spilled salt can be equated with beliefs about questions well outside the capacity of science to answer , such as "where did the universe come from?"

This is the same tactic as people who complain that pepper spray is a "chemical weapon" so as to conjure up images of nerve gas when complaining about some use of it. Or are you going to assert that there is nothing pejorative about the term "superstition" and that it's merely a linguistically correct appellation?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:52 pm 
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Really ...

Telling you to use the search term "define superstition" is not verifiable? How the **** are you not capable of typing two words in a search box at google.com and repeating a repeatable exercise?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:09 pm 
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By the way, here's the OED Entry:
Oxford English Dictionary wrote:
Oxford English Dictionary | The definitive record of the English language
superstition, n.
Pronunciation: Brit. /ˌsuːpəˈstɪʃn/ , /ˌsjuːpəˈstɪʃn/ , U.S. /ˌsupərˈstɪʃən/
Forms: eME supersticiun, ME supersticione, ME superstycyoun, ME–16 supersticioun, ME–16 supersticion, 15 supersticyon, 15 superstycyon, 15– superstition; also Sc. pre-17 superstitione, pre-17 superstitioun, pre-17 superstitioune, pre-17 supperticioun, pre-17 supperstitioun, pre-17 suppestitioun.
Etymology: < (i) Middle French supersticion, superstition, superticyon (French superstition ) unorthodox or unfounded (especially non-Christian or heretical) religious belief (a1359), magical or occult practice (a1366), over-attachment to something (1549),

and its etymon (ii) classical Latin superstitiōn-, superstitiō attitude of irrational religious awe or credulity, particular superstitious belief or practice, foreign or non-orthodox religious practice or doctrine, in post-classical Latin also luxury, profusion (8th cent.), superfluity (9th cent.) < superstit- , superstes standing over (see superstite adj.) + -iō -ion suffix1.

Compare Spanish superstición (late 14th cent.), Portuguese superstição (c1560), Italian superstizione (mid 14th cent.).
The semantic motivation for the word is unclear. The classical Latin author Cicero suggested ( Natura Deorum 2. 28. 72) that superstitious people (superstitiōsī ) were so called because they practised excessive religious devotion in order that their children might survive (superstites essent ), but this is probably a folk etymology. A view held in late antiquity is that the use of the words superstitiō ‘superstition’ and superstitiōsus ‘superstitious’ with reference to religion derives from the idea that such practices were superfluous or redundant. Compare Isidore Origines 8. 3. 6 Superstitio dicta eo quod sit superflua aut superinstituta observatio ‘Superstition is so called because it is the name for redundant and superseded (religious) observation’. Classical Latin superstes was used with reference to a soldier standing over the prostrate body of a defeated enemy, and it has also been suggested that from this use, classical Latin superstitiō had the sense ‘superiority’, and hence developed the senses ‘prophecy’ and ‘sorcery’.

Sense 1 is apparently not attested in Anglo-Norman and Old French, and quot. c1230 is taken from a passage in Ancrene Riwle which has no equivalent in either the slightly earlier Cleopatra manuscript or in the Anglo-Norman version.
†I. Senses relating to excess (cf. superstitious adj. II.).

1. An action characterized by superfluity or excess. Cf. superstitious adj. 4. Obs. rare.

c1230 (▸?a1200) Ancrene Riwle (Corpus Cambr.) (1962) 102 Þe ealleofte hwelp is ifed wið supersticiuns, wið semblanz, & wið sines.

2. Excessive scrupulousness. Cf. superstitious adj. 5. Obs. rare—0.

1755 Johnson Dict. Eng. Lang., Superstition,..over-nicety; exactness too scrupulous.
II. Senses relating to belief.

3. Religious belief or practice considered to be irrational, unfounded, or based on fear or ignorance; excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural.

▸c1384 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) (Douce 369(2)) (1850) Coloss. ii. 23 Preceptis and techingis of men..ben sotheli hauynge resoun of wysdom in supersticioun [L. superstitione] or veyn religioun.
?a1425 (▸a1415) Wyclif Lanterne of Liȝt 88 (MED), It is of perfeccioun not to swere in ony manere; It is of infirmite to swere constreyned, but it is of supersticioun to swere veynli.
?1526 G. Hervet tr. Erasmus De Immensa Dei Misericordia sig. M.vi.v, Superstitiousnes or supersticion [is] vayne deuocion.
a1538 T. Starkey Dial. Pole & Lupset (1989) 126 Theyr [sc. monks'] solytary lyfe wych hath brought forth wyth lytyl profyt to the publyke state, much superstycyon.
1548 H. Latimer Notable Serm. sig. Ciiiv, Where the Deuyll is residente..vp wyth all supersticion and Idolatrie, sensing,..holie water, and new seruice of mennes inuentyng.
1597 R. Hooker Of Lawes Eccl. Politie v. iii. 8 Superstition is, when things are either abhord or obserued, with a zealous or fearefull, but erroneous relation to God.
1651 T. Hobbes Leviathan ii. xxvii. 155 A man may stand in fear of Spirits..through his own superstition.
1653 Bp. J. Taylor Serm. for Year i. ix. 116 It is superstition to worship any thing..besides the Creator.
1701 J. Collier tr. M. Aurelius Medit. (1726) 69 The People, being generally given to Superstition, and over-credulous, swallow'd this Prophecy.
1776 A. Smith Inq. Wealth of Nations II. v. i. 385 Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition.
1777 W. Robertson Hist. Amer. iv, in Wks. (1851) V. 372 Wherever superstition is so established as to form a regular system, this desire of penetrating into the secrets of futurity is connected with it.
1808 Z. M. Pike Acct. Exped. Sources Mississippi (1810) iii. App. 24 The people's superstition is so great that they are running after the holy father in the streets, and endeavoring to kiss the hem of his garment.
1854 H. H. Milman Hist. Lat. Christianity II. iv. vii. 167 A copious list of miracles wrought by certain images..showing the wretched superstition into which the worship of images had degenerated.
1891 F. W. Farrar Darkness & Dawn II. li. 174 Nero had fits of superstition.
1950 W. H. Auden Enchafèd Flood (1951) ii. 51 The actual horrors of persecution, witch-hunting, and provincial superstition from which they were trying to deliver mankind.
2004 Time Out N.Y. 12 Aug. 160/2 What bothers us mostly is the flight from reason and science, and the reversion to primitive beliefs or irrational superstition.

4. A religious system considered to be irrational, unfounded, or based on fear or ignorance; a false, pagan, or idolatrous religion.

c1425 Prose Versions New Test.: Deeds (Cambr.) xxv. 19 (MED), Summe questions of his [sc. Paul's] supersticione [L. superstitione] þei hade agayne hym, and specially of one Iesu, þat es deed, whom Poule affermed forto life.
1526 Bible (Tyndale) Acts xxv. 19 They..hadde certayne questions agaynst him off their awne supersticion.
1603 R. Knolles Gen. Hist. Turkes 5 The Turks receiued the Mahometane superstition.
1613 S. Purchas Pilgrimage ii. vi. 110 The present Iewish superstition.
1630 tr. G. Botero Relations Famous Kingdomes World (rev. ed.) 564 [Mohammed] making him [sc. Ali] the head of his superstition, with the title of Caliph.
1671 Milton Samson Agonistes 15 Unwillingly this rest Thir Superstition yields me.
1771 T. Smollett Humphry Clinker II. 144 A conference with his friend Voltaire, about giving the last blow to the Christian superstition.
1813 J. C. Prichard Res. Physical Hist. Man viii. §1. 402 These authors regard the latter [sc. Buddhism] as the ancient and indigenous superstition of the East.
1840 A. Alison Princ. Population I. vii. 367 The superstition of the country encourages the disposition to early marriage. Sterility is esteemed a severe misfortune, or rather a curse of the offended Deity.
1870 J. A. Froude Hist. Eng. V. xxviii. 30 Between Mary, the defender of a dying superstition, and the Lords of the Council, the patrons of liberty and right, the difference so far was as between the honest watch-dog and a crew of prowling wolves.
1905 Humanitarian Rev. Dec. 453 The Christian superstition of today is nothing more nor less than a resuscitation of these old pagan myths.
1942 J. K. Ryan in R. J. Deferrari Ess. Catholic Educ. in U.S. iv. 366 In an atheistic society and under an absolute state these rights are the object of unrelenting attack. This is the modern superstition, the pseudo-religion, that philosophy and religion must refute and destroy.
2009 C. S. Wilson Sex & Devil's Wager Pref. 7 The Greeks like the Hindus may have flirted with the abomination of hell but it was perfected into an expression of pure evil and divine sadism by Christianity and Islam. Both these world superstitions made it a disproportionate punishment for a wrong choice.
5.

a. A religious belief, ceremony, or practice considered to be irrational, unfounded, or based on fear or ignorance.
Chiefly in the context of Protestant criticism of Catholic practices held not to be founded in Scripture (now chiefly hist.). Also more generally or merged in senses 5b, 5c.

a1450 (▸?1419–20) Friar Daw's Reply (Digby) l. 197 in P. L. Heyworth Jack Upland (1968) 79 Foure angels singnefien foure general synnes, Sett vp bi Sir Adam, Iakke, among ȝour maistris: Cediciouns, supersticions, þe glotouns, & þe proude.
?a1475 (▸?a1425) tr. R. Higden Polychron. (Harl.) (1869) II. 283 (MED), Diuerse supersticiones began of ydolatry.
1547 Certain Serm. or Homilies Good Works iii, in J. Griffiths Two Bks. Homilies (1859) i. 61 Other kinds of papistical superstitions..as of Beads, of Lady Psalters and Rosaries.
a1555 H. Latimer Serm. & Remains (1845) 229 It is but a superstition to think that a Pater Noster cannot be well said without an Ave Maria at its heel.
1640 Bp. J. Hall Episcopacie i. ii. 9 All the superstitions and fœdities of the Romish Religion.
1660 Bp. J. Taylor Ductor Dubitantium I. ii. iii. Rule 13 §23. 465 When they began to say, that..all wine was an abomination, they pass'd into a direct superstition.
1703 Irish Act 2 Anne c. 6 §26 The Superstitions of Popery are greatly increased and upheld by the pretended Sanctity..of a place called St. Patrick's Purgatory in the County of Donegall.
1736 Bp. J. Butler Analogy of Relig. i. iv. 75 By Religion's being corrupted into Superstitions, which indulge Men in their Vices.
1849 T. B. Macaulay Hist. Eng. II. x. 621 The notion would still prevail that the kingly office is the ordinance of God in a sense different from that in which all government is his ordinance. It was plain that, till this superstition was extinct, the constitution could never be secure.
1897 E. Lucas Shall Liberty Die? iii. 76 They refused to have their consciences and their souls bound by the fetters of Popish superstitions and falsehoods.
1987 M. S. Peck Different Drum ix. 191 Who needs this fuddy-duddy old Church with its silly superstitions?
2011 M. Porter Sydney Anglicans & Threat World Anglicanism ii. 25 Doing away with the Mass and other ‘Popish’ superstitions.

b. A religious ceremony or observance considered to be of a pagan or idolatrous character.

1523 J. Skelton Goodly Garlande of Laurell sig. E3v, The Phitones..by her supersticiouns Of wonderfull condiciouns..raysed vp..Samuell that was dede.
1604 E. Grimeston tr. J. de Acosta Nat. & Morall Hist. Indies iv. xxx. 293 They did assemble there for theyr dances and superstitions.
1608 T. Heywood Rape of Lucrece sig. C4v, Our superstitions ended, sacred Priest, Since we haue had free answer from the Gods.
1772 T. Pennant Tours Scotl. (1774) 42 The superstition of the Bel-tein was kept up.
1849 D. Rock Church our Fathers I. iii. 294 The heathen Britons made use of balls of crystal in their idle superstitions.
1911 Theol. Q. Oct. 213 Though Christ says, ‘Use not vain repetitions as the heathen do,’ the Romanists have introduced this heathen superstition of ‘telling their beads’.
1919 W. J. Locke Far-away Stories 124 Why the whole land should be turned into a bear garden on account of this exploded superstition of Christmas is one of the anomalies of modern civilization.
2000 A. Camps Stud. in Asian Mission Hist., 1956–1998 xvi. 209 The Franciscan and Dominican missionaries worked usually with peasants and most of them considered the rites to be pagan superstitions.

c. A widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences, especially as leading to good or bad luck, or a practice based on such a belief.

1609 Shakespeare Pericles xi. 50 The sea workes hie, The Wind is lowd, and will not lie till the Ship Be cleard of the dead. Per. That's your superstition.
1713 T. Tickell in Guardian 15 Apr. 2/1 Our own rustical Superstition of Hob-thrushes, Fairies, goblins and Witches.
1777 J. Brand Observ. Pop. Antiq. 99 There is a similar Superstition among the Vulgar in Northumberland: They call it seeing the Waff of the Person whose Death it foretells.
1810 R. Southey Hist. Brazil I. viii. 250 This was..from a persuasion that change of abode was essential to health; and a superstition, that if they departed from the custom of their forefathers they should be destroyed.
1824 W. S. Landor Imaginary Conversat. I. xii. 157 Nick gave unto him a shilling, having first spatten thereon, as he, according to his superstition, said, for luck.
1899 A. Newsholme Elem. Vital Stat. (rev. ed.) vii. 60 The month of May, owing to a widespread superstition that it is an unlucky month for marriages, is lowest on the list.
1930 W. M. Mann Wild Animals 207 Rhino horns were in great demand, due to the ancient superstition that a drinking cup made from one of them would reveal the presence of poison.
1967 R. J. A. White Short Hist. Eng. x. 180 All things considered, it was not remarkable that the English had a superstition about the number seven.
2000 A. Ghosh Glass Palace (2001) vi. 67 It was a ritual with Saya John, a kind of superstition, always to start these journeys in European clothes.
†6.

a. Religious observance. Obs. rare.

1513 G. Douglas tr. Virgil Æneid xii. xiii. 63, I sweir tharto be the onplesand well Of Stix,..Quhais only dreidfull superstitioun [L. superstitio] heyr The Goddis kepis, that nane dar it forsweyre.

b. Extravagant quasi-religious devotion to a non-religious object. Obs. rare.

1637 J. Fletcher & P. Massinger Elder Brother iii. v. sig. F3, The old man shall not love his heapes of gold With a more doting superstition, Than Ile love you.
a1640 J. Fletcher & P. Massinger Lovers Progres iii. iii, in F. Beaumont & J. Fletcher Comedies & Trag. (1647) sig. Kkk4v/2, May I not kisse ye now in superstition? For you appeare a thing that I would kneele to.

7. Irrational, unfounded, or erroneous belief other than that based on religion or the supernatural; an unreasonable, groundless, or mistaken notion.

1771 tr. J. G. Zimmermann Ess. National Pride 154 They [sc. nations] remain perpetually shackled in that political superstition [Ger. Aberglauben], which sticks so close to what stands founded only on antiquity.
1794 J. Hutton Diss. Philos. Light 107, I am afraid there are many men of science..that only believe the theory of heat and cold in prejudice or superstition, i.e. without having seen its evidence.
1851 H. Spencer Social Statics xix. 209 Of the political superstitions,..none is so universally diffused as the notion that majorities are omnipotent.
1868 M. Pattison Suggestions Acad. Organisation v. 120 The superstition of the law-courts that a man can exercise rights of property after his death to all time.
1913 E. Key Rahel Varnhagen ii. 77 How Rahel with her lucidity of thought would have exposed the modern superstition that it is in outward departments of work that woman gives expression to her human ‘individuality’, while a mother only acts as a sexual creature!
1948 Daily Tel. 29 May 2/6 [He] blew sky-high the complacent superstition of a war-time ‘renaissance’.
2008 F. S. Guthery Primer Nat. Resource Sci. v. 48 If we are not careful, we will tend to perceive time-near events as cause and effect. If they are not, we might end up with scientific superstition (the erroneous belief that two events are causally related).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:14 pm 
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My first reference was using the OS X built-in dictionary. All other references came from dictionary.reference.com.

Diamondeye wrote:
Whether something is a disprovable hypothesis has a great deal to do with whether it's a superstition, since something that isn't provable or disprovable in the first place makes no statement about the natural causes of any effect. A superstition attempts to replace a natural or scientifically observable cause with one that is not.


Something being provable has NOTHING to do with whether or not it is superstitious. Nothing. A superstition can still exist even in the face of direct evidence.

Dictionary wrote:
Superstition
noun
1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
2. a system or collection of such beliefs.
3. a custom or act based on such a belief.
4. irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, especially in connection with religion.
5. any blindly accepted belief or notion.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:42 am 
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Lenas wrote:
Something being provable has NOTHING to do with whether or not it is superstitious. Nothing. A superstition can still exist even in the face of direct evidence.


Yes it does. Whether a superstition can exist in the face of direct evidence has nothing to do with whether a belief is a superstition or not. People can obstinately hold all kinds of beliefs in the face of direct evidence. By this definition, 9/11 Truthers, Birthers, and people disputing the authenticity of the moon landing are all "superstitious".

Dictionary wrote:
Superstition
noun
1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.
2. a system or collection of such beliefs.
3. a custom or act based on such a belief.
4. irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, especially in connection with religion.
5. any blindly accepted belief or notion.
[/quote]

It's amazing how you can highlight the first portion of a sentence and then ignore the phrase right after it that restricts it down to exactly what I'm talking about.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:47 am 
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Khross wrote:
Really ...

Telling you to use the search term "define superstition" is not verifiable? How the **** are you not capable of typing two words in a search box at google.com and repeating a repeatable exercise?


What's not verifiable is whether the definition in "dictionary.com" came from a google search, or if the google search result was from someone else putting it in another page from dictionary.com. I didn't do a google search of "define superstition" with any amount of quotation marks - I went to dictionary.com and put in superstition and got the result.

I also linked the page, so the definition you were talking about didn't come from a google search of "define superstition" at all. I have no idea what sort of pedantry you're trying to engage in here, but the simple fact is that I got a definition from a source that no one has ever seen fit to dispute before - even though I've used it on numerous occasions for years.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:50 am 
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Quote:
3. Religious belief or practice considered to be irrational, unfounded, or based on fear or ignorance; excessively credulous belief in and reverence for the supernatural.


So, according to the OED, superstition is based on the subjective view of the observer. Fine. Taly and Lenas are perfectly entitled to insist on their subjective opinion as much as they want.

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Rational means "supported by logic."

It's not subjective.

There's also a misconception that "irrational" means "disproven by logic." It does not. If it's irrational, logic cannot be used to solve it. Something that is irrational does not fit within the bounds of logic.

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Diamondeye:

No one contended that dictionary.com took their results from a Google search. Straw-man much? You're so hellbent on being confrontational and contrary that you're outright inventing positions for people now. I posted a definition and told you how to repeat acquiring said definition.

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Talya wrote:
Rational means "supported by logic."

It's not subjective.


rational

"Logic" appears in none of the definitions there. Furthermore, the definition Lenas cited said "considered to be" irrational. Just because people consider something a certain way does not mean that it actually is that way. The way people "consider" things is subjective. Something supported by a logical argument can still be fairly irrational if the underlying premises are weak. For example, there is substantial logic in support of communism, but actual experience makes it irrational to continue to support it as a government system because empirical evidence indicates that human behavior does not work in the way that communism requires to function. The common argument "well it would be great if people would just act in accordance with its principles" is a typical example; the argument amounts to "it would work great if people weren't people". the fact is that people ARE people and bemoaning the fact that they aren't.. well, something other than people is irrational.

Quote:
There's also a misconception that "irrational" means "disproven by logic." It does not. If it's irrational, logic cannot be used to solve it. Something that is irrational does not fit within the bounds of logic.


irrational can mean that, but that is not necessarily what it means.

irrational

If we really wanted to be pedantic, we could say that "rational" and "irrational" refer to whether a number can be expressed as a ratio of two numbers or polynomials or not - but that's clearly not what is in question here.

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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye:

No one contended that dictionary.com took their results from a Google search. Straw-man much? You're so hellbent on being confrontational and contrary that you're outright inventing positions for people now.


"This is a definition of a word" is not a position.

Quote:
I posted a definition and told you how to repeat acquiring said definition.


Fair enough. That definition still does not say what Taly contended it does.

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Diamondeye wrote:
Talya wrote:
Rational means "supported by logic."

It's not subjective.


rational

"Logic" appears in none of the definitions there.


Once again - google definition FTW.

Quote:
ra·tion·al/ˈraSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
1.based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
2.(of a number, quantity, or expression) expressible, or containing quantities that are expressible, as a ratio of whole numbers. When expressed as a decimal, a rational number has a finite or recurring expansion.

noun
a rational number.

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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Talya wrote:
Rational means "supported by logic."

It's not subjective.


rational

"Logic" appears in none of the definitions there.


Once again - google definition FTW.

Quote:
ra·tion·al/ˈraSH(ə)n(ə)l/
adjective
1.based on or in accordance with reason or logic.
2.(of a number, quantity, or expression) expressible, or containing quantities that are expressible, as a ratio of whole numbers. When expressed as a decimal, a rational number has a finite or recurring expansion.

noun
a rational number.



"or" - in other words, not necessarily. Reason and logic are related and similar, but not the same. Also, I don't know why you think google's definitions would be better than dictionary.com's. Just because you like it better? The fact that they are not the same lends credence to "not necessarily."

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