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 Post subject: so how does this work?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:09 pm 
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So I have been chatting with Moose about this...

I have always supported Net Neutrality

What confuses me, if net neutrality has been a generally more conservative thing even garnering 83% bipartisan support in the past, why is it now suddenly a Liberal conspiracy just because the PotUS has officially declared his opinion?

Net Neutrailty-ish link

They even go as far as to suggest that by Supporting Net Neutrality he is ignoring the will of the people.

I have never been a die hard Democrat, or even a liberal for that matter. I am just really confused by this, or am I not confused; but, instead waking up to the real hypocrisy that is reality?

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Last edited by Lenas on Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fixed Link -Lenas


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:27 pm 
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Its giving the FCC the same level of control as they do over tv and radio.

It has always been a scam being sold under the idea of "corporations are evil" and "government can protect you".

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:37 pm 
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**** Net Neutrality.

A whole lot of people, regardless of political affiliation, need to be stabbed repeatedly with forks.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:59 pm 
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In one corner, you have what Comcast, Time Warner, AT&T, and other telecoms want (no net neutrality), companies with a verifiable and unblemished history of **** over consumers when and wherever possible, and creating **** opportunities when none naturally present themselves.

In the other, you have Google, Microsoft, eBay, Facebook, and more than 100 other companies saying refusal of net neutrality is "a grave threat to the Internet".

The guy in charge of all of this (Tom Wheeler, FCC chairman) is a telecom shill, a former venture capitalist and telecom lobbyist (who used to be the President of the National Cable & Telecommunications Association and CEO of the Cellular Telecommunications & Internet Association, among others). He was Obama's pick.

It's **** every which way. Basically it boils down to whom you trust more: the federal government (not a good choice), or Comcast (an even worse one, IMO).


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:19 pm 
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The only group that has anything to lose from Net Neutrality is ISP's.

Imagine if your cable company wasn't allowed to sell you 100 channels you didn't want in packages you never asked for. Imagine, instead, that you could get all of your content a la carte and they could not incentivize you toward any one channel over another. That all they could actually charge you for is access to an entire network of channels. This is how the internet works today, and people against NN want to change that.

Does that sound good to you? Then you probably should support it.

Look at the companies that are against Net Neutrality: Verizon, AT&T, Comcast, Time Warner, CableVision, Charter. Have you ever thought that those companies just love **** people over in the name of profits? If you answer yes, why ever support something that they would support?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:28 pm 
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I know how the NN would work, my question of how this works, is why is it OK when the conservatives suggest it, but now it is a BS crap piece when the PotUS supports it?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Because partisan blowhards on TV and the Internet don't actually give a **** about what you want or what's good, they only want to disagree with the other side.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:30 pm 
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It's always been a BS piece of crap. And it's always going to be a BS piece of crap, because it doesn't address what is the actual problem of the American consumer.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:38 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Look at the companies that are against Net Neutrality: Verizon, AT&T, Comcast, Time Warner, CableVision, Charter. Have you ever thought that those companies just love **** people over in the name of profits? If you answer yes, why ever support something that they would support?
To be fair, Verizion is vociferously opposed to the internet being considered a public utility and with good reason.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:42 pm 
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The core mindset driving NN proponents is that all data on the network should be treated equally regardless of its content or source.

Any political stuff people want to put on top of that is irrelevant to me. I don't personally give a crap if the internet is called a utility or not.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:51 pm 
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other than a knee-jerk reaction that anything that the government does is automatically worse than something 'free enterprise' does, what is the actual objection to NN that you have?


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:55 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
I know how the NN would work, my question of how this works, is why is it OK when the conservatives suggest it, but now it is a BS crap piece when the PotUS supports it?


I don't. How IS it supposed to work?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:01 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I don't. How IS it supposed to work?


http://theoatmeal.com/blog/net_neutrality


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:02 pm 
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The Internet is largely responsible for the decentralization of information and hugely responsible for the expansive access to information that has taken place in the last 20-25 years. Allowing the FCC to regulate the Internet as a public utility ends up the same way the internet is in China right now.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:03 pm 
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Ah, good old slippery slope defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:16 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
I don't. How IS it supposed to work?


http://theoatmeal.com/blog/net_neutrality


I was actually being serious about wanting to know how it's supposed to work.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:19 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Ah, good old slippery slope defense.
Giving the FCC regulatory authority over the internet as if were a public utility is not net neutrality, Lenas. It is, in point of fact, precisely what Ted Cruz called it. Mind you, Senator Cruz is a moron and his characterization is only accurate by happenstance, but he's correct.

It was the FCC that gave AT&T, Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, etc., the ability to throttle data based on source. The only thing the government did was say they couldn't directly charge consumers for bandwidth priority. Instead, they indirectly charged consumers by collectively bullying the largest streaming sources in the United States. Under current FCC regulations, the following providers are throttled by AT&T: Netflix, Hulu, Crunchyroll, Amazon Instant Video, and Twitch.

As for the rest of it, internet service providers are already regulated as if they were public utilities. They can enter into charter agreements with municipalities, counties, and states. They can cockblock their competitors and get de facto monopolies, just like cable providers. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Verizon's FIOS service is not available in the state where AT&T is headquartered, right?

The FCC is the last regulatory body in the world you want in charge of the internet, because the only place that ends is a hobbled, useless internet with censored content.

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Last edited by Khross on Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:42 pm 
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I would be fine if they would find a 3rd option that did not involve the fcc, government and could still keep the core of net Neutrality in place.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:55 pm 
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Khross wrote:
It was the FCC that gave AT&T, Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, etc., the ability to throttle data based on source. The only thing the government did was say they couldn't directly charge consumers for bandwidth priority. Instead, they indirectly charged consumers by collectively bullying the largest streaming sources in the United States. Under current FCC regulations, the following providers are throttled by AT&T: Netflix, Hulu, Crunchyroll, Amazon Instant Video, and Twitch.

As for the rest of it, internet service providers are already regulated as if they were public utilities. They can enter into charter agreements with municipalities, counties, and states. They can cockblock their competitors and get de facto monopolies, just like cable providers. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Verizon's FIOS service is not available in the state where AT&T is headquartered, right?


Thank you for pointing out exactly what neutrality supporters want to stop.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:10 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Khross wrote:
It was the FCC that gave AT&T, Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, etc., the ability to throttle data based on source. The only thing the government did was say they couldn't directly charge consumers for bandwidth priority. Instead, they indirectly charged consumers by collectively bullying the largest streaming sources in the United States. Under current FCC regulations, the following providers are throttled by AT&T: Netflix, Hulu, Crunchyroll, Amazon Instant Video, and Twitch.

As for the rest of it, internet service providers are already regulated as if they were public utilities. They can enter into charter agreements with municipalities, counties, and states. They can cockblock their competitors and get de facto monopolies, just like cable providers. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that Verizon's FIOS service is not available in the state where AT&T is headquartered, right?
Thank you for pointing out exactly what neutrality supporters want to stop.
That's all stuff I want to stop, Lenas. I just don't think the Net Neutrality banner really understands what happens when the FCC gets to regulate something. Corolinth is correct when he tells me that the Internet will be regulated like a public utility in his life time.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:48 pm 
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Net neutrality is popular primarily with ignorant consumers who are told about the evils of capitalism and the corporations out to make money. What they do not understand is that all citizens do not need or merit equal access to the Internet.

The Internet is not a public library, it is a sophisticated data network. You might think of it like our roads, which not everyone has equal access to. Most drivers have had to pull over to the side of the road to let an ambulance, fire truck, or police cruiser go by. There are drivers on the road who have a higher priority than you. The thing people find offensive about this on the internet is that those high priority users are not government bodies, but private institutions. That's fine, people can be offended all they want. Those people are still wrong.

You are trying to talk to your mother or father via email, send pictures of your baby with cake all over his or her face, and watch Netflix. Pfizer is trying to maintain records on all of their equipment over roughly a decade in compliance with FDA regulations, maintain decades worth of research data, take customer orders, track supply chain information, and have all of these records be searchable by various members of the company. Your usage requirements are probably small. Pfizer's usage requirements are large.

Large businesses pay a cost commensurate with their network usage. Network equipment draws a lot of electrical power from the grid, and electricity costs money. Furthermore, network equipment must be overseen and maintained by teams of highly trained engineers in order to keep the Internet running. The Internet isn't free. For most users, this isn't a problem. Monsanto, Boeing, Goldman Sachs, Apple, Google, and so forth pay the bills that keep the Internet running. We charge a family of four a token fee to use the network because they really aren't making a dent in network capacity.

Occasionally, however, there are problems. Some of you are those problems. Some private users consume a disproportionately high amount of capacity. Some people are running BitTorrent constantly, or are otherwise responsible for numerous large file transfers in a short amount of time. These people are not the Pattersons, who twiddle around on the Internet checking Facebook, ordering Christmas presents on Amazon, and having a Skype conversation with Grandma once a week. They are instead high volume users who are sponging off of everyone else's dime. They are paying a fee to use the network, but they are paying well below their usage.

Likely, people like Lenas who think they are being screwed by the service providers. I say likely, because I don't know Lenas' actual network usage. It's possible he's a low-impact user. It's not that providers don't want these high-impact users on their network, far from it. They want business. Providers aren't in the habit of cutting your access to movies and games. People think that, because evil capitalist corporations are evil, but those people are morons who don't understand how money works.

Now let's take a look at a real life scenario involving public utilities. Did you know that electrical utility companies can cut service to a hospital? The circumstances involve a lot of secret sauce, but in a nutshell the NEC has code requirements involving the characteristics of the electrical signal flowing on the power grid. The construction of certain hospitals, the equipment housed therein, and the usage profile of that equipment can cause the local grid to deviate from NEC requirements. Under that condition, the hospital has to be taken offline to protect the rest of the grid. Most hospitals resolve the issue within the allotted time, but a power company can shut off a hospital in the United States.

What I'm getting at here is that regulation of the Internet as a public utility is not going to lead to the result that most of you seem to fantasize about. Actually, it's going to get noticeably more expensive, because public utilities must employ licensed professional engineers. Certain positions within that industry could expect to see their pay increase dramatically, and the savings will be passed on to the customer. This will happen in our llifetime.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:47 pm 
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Here is the problem with Net Neutrality. Basically, this thread, in a nutshell. You will note that none of you know what it is, although you all have opinions. And they're all wrong. Net Neutrality is, nothing more and nothing less than, a revolving cast of characters saying "**** those guys" about another revolving cast of characters.

Net Neutrality is a cure worse than the disease, a punishment that does not fit the crime, a solution in search of a problem, etc.

The problem that the American consumer has, is that physical plant tends to monopolize. Inasmuch as anything in business can be described as natural, this is a natural process.

The Internet is not one thing. The vast majority of people cannot grasp this concept.

So what is the problem? You, the residential customer, do not have any material competition for your dollars. This is where the sticking point lies. The only piece that can, and should, be a public utility is the physical "last mile" infrastructure. Unlike utilities such as gas, electric, water, and sewer, service can be divorced from access when it comes to the Internet. Here is a scenario: You have a fiber pair running into your home. You can purchase service from anybody. Want to be a Comcast customer? Sure. Want to be a Verizon customer? Sure. Want to be a Level3 customer, an AT&T customer, an NTT customer, a DTAG customer, a Telefonica customer? Sure. Now you don't have to worry about if someone wants to **** around with your traffic. You just go somewhere else.

How do we get there? We certainly don't get there with the FCC. I was in attendance at the last NANOG in Baltimore. We had two talks from FCC representatives. One from the Chief ECC, who at least has some credibility in a room full of engineers, and the other from a couple of nimrod lawyers, who don't. In the Q&A after the talks, after the second talk especially, the very pointed questions about what they thought they were accomplishing arose, which were very telling, in that they didn't really know, but they did know that the American public felt more strongly about the Internet than they did Janet Jackson's nipple, so at least that's something. Are there worse entities than the FCC? Hell yeah, one of them is the ITU.

We don't get there with the incumbents. The incumbents have spent a lot of time and money building the last mile, and while some of that last mile was publicly funded, a lot of it was not. You can't just run around hijacking what somebody else built. Well, let me rephrase that. You can just run around hijacking what somebody else built, but that doesn't look forward far enough. Ultimately, this results in you getting your **** jacked, and then nobody building anything ever again. Also, you don't get to tell entities how they have to relate to each other. See previous "Ultimately ...".

So we have to run new fiber. Here's the unpopular part. Running new fiber costs real money, and you're probably not worth it. No private entity is going to run fiber to your home for the purpose of letting other people sell you service. A New York high-rise, maybe. Anything past that is a bad bet. So if you're waiting for Trump Towers to subsidize your rollout, you're gonna wait a while.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:56 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Net neutrality is popular primarily with ignorant consumers who are told about the evils of capitalism and the corporations out to make money. What they do not understand is that all citizens do not need or merit equal access to the Internet.

The Internet is not a public library, it is a sophisticated data network. You might think of it like our roads, which not everyone has equal access to. Most drivers have had to pull over to the side of the road to let an ambulance, fire truck, or police cruiser go by. There are drivers on the road who have a higher priority than you. The thing people find offensive about this on the internet is that those high priority users are not government bodies, but private institutions. That's fine, people can be offended all they want. Those people are still wrong.

You are trying to talk to your mother or father via email, send pictures of your baby with cake all over his or her face, and watch Netflix. Pfizer is trying to maintain records on all of their equipment over roughly a decade in compliance with FDA regulations, maintain decades worth of research data, take customer orders, track supply chain information, and have all of these records be searchable by various members of the company. Your usage requirements are probably small. Pfizer's usage requirements are large.

Large businesses pay a cost commensurate with their network usage. Network equipment draws a lot of electrical power from the grid, and electricity costs money. Furthermore, network equipment must be overseen and maintained by teams of highly trained engineers in order to keep the Internet running. The Internet isn't free. For most users, this isn't a problem. Monsanto, Boeing, Goldman Sachs, Apple, Google, and so forth pay the bills that keep the Internet running. We charge a family of four a token fee to use the network because they really aren't making a dent in network capacity.

Occasionally, however, there are problems. Some of you are those problems. Some private users consume a disproportionately high amount of capacity. Some people are running BitTorrent constantly, or are otherwise responsible for numerous large file transfers in a short amount of time. These people are not the Pattersons, who twiddle around on the Internet checking Facebook, ordering Christmas presents on Amazon, and having a Skype conversation with Grandma once a week. They are instead high volume users who are sponging off of everyone else's dime. They are paying a fee to use the network, but they are paying well below their usage.

Likely, people like Lenas who think they are being screwed by the service providers. I say likely, because I don't know Lenas' actual network usage. It's possible he's a low-impact user. It's not that providers don't want these high-impact users on their network, far from it. They want business. Providers aren't in the habit of cutting your access to movies and games. People think that, because evil capitalist corporations are evil, but those people are morons who don't understand how money works.

Now let's take a look at a real life scenario involving public utilities. Did you know that electrical utility companies can cut service to a hospital? The circumstances involve a lot of secret sauce, but in a nutshell the NEC has code requirements involving the characteristics of the electrical signal flowing on the power grid. The construction of certain hospitals, the equipment housed therein, and the usage profile of that equipment can cause the local grid to deviate from NEC requirements. Under that condition, the hospital has to be taken offline to protect the rest of the grid. Most hospitals resolve the issue within the allotted time, but a power company can shut off a hospital in the United States.

What I'm getting at here is that regulation of the Internet as a public utility is not going to lead to the result that most of you seem to fantasize about. Actually, it's going to get noticeably more expensive, because public utilities must employ licensed professional engineers. Certain positions within that industry could expect to see their pay increase dramatically, and the savings will be passed on to the customer. This will happen in our llifetime.


This is not how I've understood net neutrality to work. Net neutrality does not stop Comcast from charging more for more bandwidth. Net neutrality requires Comcast to treat everyone the same and route everyone's packets the same. X dollars gets Y bandwidth no matter who you are.

How much would you be willing to pay for Internet if the alternative was not having internet? I'm willing to bet it's a lot more than you're paying now. Since Comcast is a monopoly, they would ordinarily be able to charge you the profit maximizing price, the absolute max you are willing to pay to get Internet. The only reason they can not charge this price is that if they did, you would call your Congressman and tell him to dismantle them.

Without net neutrality, Comcast can get this amount from you by shifting the burden to where you won't blame them for it. The guy streaming 10 TB of Netflix a month will not be hassled by Comcast. They will continue to eat a huge loss by providing him unlimited internet for $30/month. They will then make up that loss by demanding that Netflix pay them billions of dollars or have their viability as a company ended. Netflix will have to raise prices to pay for this, and the consumer will thus blame Netflix for the hike, not Comcast. The consumer loves what he's getting from Comcast. 10+ TB a month for only $30! That's amazing! Clearly giving Comcast monopoly power has not caused them to abuse us. We should give them even more control!

New startups that want to stream over the internet can no longer start up, because they cannot afford Comcast's extortion. Bit Torrent will get quashed, of course, because there's no massive corporation behind it they can extort billions from, and they can use software piracy/illegal activity as can excuse.

Comcast will provide whatever you ask if there's no net neutrality. Fiber straight to everyone's hone? No problem! Internet and cable modems for free? Sure! Who cares how much it costs, Netflix is paying for it.

This is pretty much exactly how Wal-Mart does business by the way. They tell their suppliers that they will supply X goods at Y price or they'll cut off said supplier and instantly put them out of business, because you can't survive if you can't sell to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart gets to have low prices and everyone else gets to take the risks associated with the razor thin margins.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:07 am 
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I worked at Cisco for 5 years developing the subscriber management systems that go on provider edge routers. Legislation to stop innovation isn't going to make things any better.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:11 am 
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