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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:18 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Cops should be held to a higher standard. They have the training, they have the skills to perform their job.

Murdering citizens is not their job. Protecting them is.


Tautology much?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:26 pm 
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Has anyone confirmed that he was actually selling cigarettes, or was he just accused of it? I can't seem to find a straight answer.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
Has anyone confirmed that he was actually selling cigarettes, or was he just accused of it? I can't seem to find a straight answer.


No one has actually confirmed one way or the other. However, it's apparently quite common these days in New York due to the $5.85 a pack tax, and Garner had been caught doing so many times before. It is an "uncommonly silly law" that the police really shouldn't have to enforce, or if they do it should be a ticketable offense and not call for custodial arrest.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Everyone is forgetting that Diamondeye is still a cop, only now he has a Federal employer -- the Department of Homeland Security. He works for Homeland Security Investigations, which is obvious based on the information he had provided during previous posts. He stated he did not work for the Border Patrol but was heavily involved in border enforcement issues. It is highly likely, given his past employment and military experience, that Diamondeye works for the paramilitary arm of Homeland Security Investigations on a Special Response Team.

HSI is empowered to enforce more Federal Law than any law enforcement agency in the country, including the FBI. They were also exempted from the new Federal standards for racial profiling. Every response in this thread shows his occupational bias. That he works for a law enforcement agency of dubious necessity only complicates the matter. His opinion is not balanced, nor will you ever get him to admit to police wrong doing. There are four former police officers in Georgia serving time for a shooting Diamondeye contended was justified until their conviction. And, even then, he disagrees with convicting officers for returning fire when serving a no-knock warrant at the wrong house.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:37 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Everyone is forgetting that Diamondeye is still a cop, only now he has a Federal employer -- the Department of Homeland Security. He works for Homeland Security Investigations, which is obvious based on the information he had provided during previous posts. He stated he did not work for the Border Patrol but was heavily involved in border enforcement issues. It is highly likely, given his past employment and military experience, that Diamondeye works for the paramilitary arm of Homeland Security Investigations on a Special Response Team.


No, but it is amusing to see how what I've said in the past once you've run it through your imagination. I never specifically said what agency I work for, but I do know that I once specified what color the uniforms are - and only one agency wears that color. I'm also pretty sure that no one here has forgotten anything.

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HSI is empowered to enforce more Federal Law than any law enforcement agency in the country, including the FBI. They were also exempted from the new Federal standards for racial profiling. Every response in this thread shows his occupational bias. That he works for a law enforcement agency of dubious necessity only complicates the matter. His opinion is not balanced, nor will you ever get him to admit to police wrong doing. There are four former police officers in Georgia serving time for a shooting Diamondeye contended was justified until their conviction. And, even then, he disagrees with convicting officers for returning fire when serving a no-knock warrant at the wrong house.


It's amusing that you talk about bias as if you were in a position to evaluate it Khross. You are one of the most biased people I have ever met against law enforcement, and you do it from a mistaken sense of understanding of the issues involved. This board in general is heavily anti-law enforcement biased, but you (and a few other people) go well beyond that level. The bias you perceive me as having is a result of your own distorted perspective - I'm perfectly willing to castigate poice misconduct when it occurs, but most of what we discuss here isn't. It's stuff that you WANT to be misconduct, but isn't. Clear misconduct almost never comes up here, probably because it's pretty clear and there's little to discuss. There's plenty of it - but that's not what comes up here.

You can also stop misrepresenting the Georgia thing. When we initially discussed that case, I defended the officers based on the information that was available at the time. After that discussion was finished, other information came out and then years later the subject came up again - when you tried to pretend we'd all had all the facts all along, and "oh DE was just defending them no matter what."

Then again, any thing involving the police seems to run straight into a complete imperviousness to facts. Apparently it doesn't matter how many times I say in this thread "the officers involved in the Garner incident were wrong, the family should file suit, the officers should be disciplined, and should have been charged but for the prosecutor's mistakes"; somehow that becomes "DE is defending the cops!" - as if defending the cops was something that needed to be excused in the first place.

Do you honestly think that even if I change my mind tomorrow and agree with you on everything, that will actually cause any change, Khross? No? Then why don't you just discuss the issue instead of worrying so much about what I think.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Diamondeye:

We had all the information in the Georgia case all along. We knew they served a no knock warrant. We knew they served it at the wrong address. We knew they shot the lady for defending her home from a home invasion. The only thing we didn't know prior to conviction was whether or not the prosecutors in Atlanta were going after the cops. The only fact that changed your opinion was the conviction as far as anyone here knows. And that's only years after the fact.

The police officers responsible for Eric Garner's death were shielded by the prosecutor's misconduct, and that speaks to a whole different set of problems with the Justice system in New York state.

As for you agreeing with me, that won't happen. I haven't had much use for police officers since one of them shot me (erroneously, I might add).

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:36 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye:

We had all the information in the Georgia case all along. We knew they served a no knock warrant. We knew they served it at the wrong address. We knew they shot the lady for defending her home from a home invasion. The only thing we didn't know prior to conviction was whether or not the prosecutors in Atlanta were going after the cops. The only fact that changed your opinion was the conviction as far as anyone here knows. And that's only years after the fact.


I am not going to rehash the same incident with you for the third time. You are wildly misrepresenting what information was available at what time, and what the nature of the debate was.

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The police officers responsible for Eric Garner's death were shielded by the prosecutor's misconduct, and that speaks to a whole different set of problems with the Justice system in New York state.


Which I already acknowledged. However, the problem is not that the prosecutor engaged in misconduct (or at least, so far as we know he did not - we do not have all the GJ details so the possibility remains.)

The problem is that the Grand Jury is supposed to take the decision to indict out of the hands of the government and put it in those of the citizens, but it has been co-opted by the government to become a rubber stamp. It's almost always a pro forma process.

The problem is that everyone else is not benefitting from the same practices the prosecutors in these 2 cases engaged in (or in the NYC case, appeared to engage in) of presenting all of the evidence to the GJ rather than just the portions favorable to prosecution, but the fact that regular citizens do not benefit from this. This is a nationwide problem, and not specific to New York.

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As for you agreeing with me, that won't happen. I haven't had much use for police officers since one of them shot me (erroneously, I might add).


I hear certain kinds of bigotry are OK these days.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:03 pm 
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Diamondeye:

Misconduct is probably too strong and too legal a word for that sentence. Favoritism might be a more apt description of the New York prosecutor's position. As for regular citizens not being afforded the same practices, I would suggest that our legal systems and Justice systems nationwide are too focused on outcomes and not enough on actual justice. The recent glut of overturned convictions in high profile cases, particularly death row cases wherein exculpatory evidence was withheld, suggests this is a long standing problem. Other factors contribute to that opinion as well, such as the general avoidance of jury nullification and seeking retrials in cases where the original jury chose to nullify application of the law (rare, but has happened).

Incidentally, it's not really bigotry to dislike the current state and practices of the law enforcement profession in the United States. I don't have much use for police officers, so I take measures to avoid interactions with them. I don't break the law; I don't engage in suspicious or questionable behavior; I simply avoid involving the cops in my life and my life in theirs. That said, I've been working for universities for longer than you've known me, and I've seen enough law enforcement turn over and one job ponies to know that law enforcement attracts two major categories of people: those who want to serve and those who want authority. The latter are a problem, and it's my experience they don't last long. They're usually the one job ponies. Unfortunately for the other group, they give all cops a bad name.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:31 am 
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So true story... on Friday I was taking a nap and I woke up to police in my bedroom. The landlord had opened the door for them so they could go in. Turns out there was a break-in upstairs in the building so the police were checking out every apartment. Still a total invasion of privacy.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:25 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
So true story... on Friday I was taking a nap and I woke up to police in my bedroom. The landlord had opened the door for them so they could go in. Turns out there was a break-in upstairs in the building so the police were checking out every apartment. Still a total invasion of privacy.


Maybe in a qualitative sense, but depending on the State laws about landlords and the particulars in the contract you signed, the landlord may be legally able let the police into his property without prior notification to you and without the police serving a warrant.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:48 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Lex Luthor wrote:
So true story... on Friday I was taking a nap and I woke up to police in my bedroom. The landlord had opened the door for them so they could go in. Turns out there was a break-in upstairs in the building so the police were checking out every apartment. Still a total invasion of privacy.


Maybe in a qualitative sense, but depending on the State laws about landlords and the particulars in the contract you signed, the landlord may be legally able let the police into his property without prior notification to you and without the police serving a warrant.


I'm pretty sure this story is a total fabrication, created just for this thread.

Landlords are not able to grant consent to search of a tenants' rented home. This is taught in the basic academy in search and seizure to every police officer, because it's about the most obvious tactic to circumvent the Fourth Amendment there is, and the first one any inexperienced cop would try - so it's taught very early on that "No, you may not do that, the courts have already ruled on it so don't even try."

Search and Seizure

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Third parties may give consent in limited cases. The person granting consent must have common authority over the premises in order for the search to be valid. This typically applies to hotel management giving consent to perform a search. It does not, however, apply to a landlord giving consent to search a person's apartment.


Landlords know this, and the police know this. Furthermore, police do not go around checking every apartment in a building just because one was broken into, particularly not on a different floor. This would be a colossal and pointless waste of time without a reason to think that the offender was actually in Lex's apartment right at that moment.

Lex is doing the same thing he was doing with the gas station shooting video, which had absolutely nothing to do with either the MO or the NYC cases - throw something out there that appeals to the Glade sense of outrage and keep things going. Heck, he even starts off with "so, true story..." Yeah.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:11 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Landlords are not able to grant consent to search of a tenants' rented home....Furthermore, police do not go around checking every apartment in a building just because one was broken into, particularly not on a different floor.

Yeah, pretty much the only time I think this would be permissible is if they were in active pursuit or had some other compelling reason to think the suspect might be hiding in one of the nearby apartments such that they could rely on an "exigent circumstances" rationale. The landlord's consent wouldn't be relevant for the 4th Amendment analysis.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:28 pm 
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The Boston Marathon bombing comes to mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:48 pm 
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Active pursuit - then they don't need the landlord, or a warrant.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:10 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Active pursuit - then they don't need the landlord, or a warrant.
Active pursuit doesn't cover the kind of searches that went on in the aftermath; you know that as well as I do, Elmo.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:28 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Active pursuit - then they don't need the landlord, or a warrant.
Active pursuit doesn't cover the kind of searches that went on in the aftermath; you know that as well as I do, Elmo.


No it also wouldn't require a landlord because there would be an open way to ingress or they wouldn't have had to wait for one. You see a rapist run into a house and lock the door behind - you can go through the window or the door. Active pursuit has a very very high burden like - we actually saw the person go into the house or the muddy bootprints of the person we were 5 seconds behind go into this shed...

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:32 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Diamondeye:

Misconduct is probably too strong and too legal a word for that sentence. Favoritism might be a more apt description of the New York prosecutor's position.


Fair enough, although I maintain the problem is that the favoritism in this case was the officer getting treated as everyone else should be treated before a Grand Jury, but aren't.

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As for regular citizens not being afforded the same practices, I would suggest that our legal systems and Justice systems nationwide are too focused on outcomes and not enough on actual justice.


This much is obvious from the hordes or protestors indicating that only their preferred outcome would be "justice". It's very convenient to say "well, their should have been a trial in MO", but what people seem to have forgotten is that trials are public so that the public knows that trials are being conducted fairly - not to open judicial proceedings to public approval.

In much the same way, there's excessive focus on the feelings of the families involved. The feelings of the families in both cases should pretty much go without saying, but their evaluation of the proceedings is not important. We are not in the habit in this country of having revenge killings, blood money and other features of family-oriented justice systems, yet the press is going out of its way to create that.

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The recent glut of overturned convictions in high profile cases, particularly death row cases wherein exculpatory evidence was withheld, suggests this is a long standing problem. Other factors contribute to that opinion as well, such as the general avoidance of jury nullification and seeking retrials in cases where the original jury chose to nullify application of the law (rare, but has happened).


All of this again, speaks to what I just said - that there is a fundamental problem with a probable cause determination process that almost always finds probable cause.

There is also a case to be made that bail in general is too high and too hard to make. Conviction rates and ability to post bond seem to be inversely related; it is much easier to assist in your own defense if you are out of jail than in.

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Incidentally, it's not really bigotry to dislike the current state and practices of the law enforcement profession in the United States.


That isn't what you said. You said you had little use for police officers - of which there are over half a million - because ONE shot you.

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I don't have much use for police officers, so I take measures to avoid interactions with them.


Because one shot you

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I don't break the law;


Ever? Not even by mistake? You are an amazingly talented individual to avoid making even accidental traffic violations from time to time.

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I don't engage in suspicious or questionable behavior;


According to who? It's a common conceit that if my behavior isn't questionable to me, it therefore should not be questionable to any observer, and that if I only insist loudly enough and take enough umbrage, that suspicion must go away. Furthermore, it does not even need to be suspicious to the police. It can be suspicious to a neighbor or passerby for possibly absurd reasons, but nonetheless they then relate their concerns, possibly not even accurately to the police, who are then obliged to investigate.

If they do so, will you blame them? I suspect you will; like so many other people you will probably wonder why they did not dismiss the concern out of hand based on the circumstances from your perspective with all the information you have rather than understanding the situation as it was presented to them.

On the plus side, I hear that precisely this sort of misunderstanding gets academics invited to the White house along with the officer to have a beer with the President.

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I simply avoid involving the cops in my life and my life in theirs. That said, I've been working for universities for longer than you've known me, and I've seen enough law enforcement turn over and one job ponies to know that law enforcement attracts two major categories of people: those who want to serve and those who want authority. The latter are a problem, and it's my experience they don't last long. They're usually the one job ponies. Unfortunately for the other group, they give all cops a bad name.


I am not quite sure how you come to these categorizations. "Wanting to serve" is something of a tautology for law enforcement - law enforcement serves the community by.. enforcing the law. It's not really any different than firefighting which serves the community by... fighting the fires. It's quite common of people to simply beg the question when they don't like something law enforcement is doing with sarcastic references to "protect and serve", with the implication being "if you are not doing what I personally approve of, you are not serving". No one would ever think of treating a fireman this way though, probably because fire will brook no argument - but in many ways the jobs are the same. Criminals will be criminals just as fire will be fire and it is useless to insist that the system work differently in the face of the intractable reality of how criminals behave.

As to "wanting authority", authority accompanies responsibility. A person who does not want authority is not suited to responsibility either - they do not want to have to deal with the problems. A person who does not want responsibility is not suited to authority either - they do not want to be held accountable for their actions. Anyone who has any ambition to advance wants authority of some sort. Wanting authority is not bad as long as one accepts the accompanying responsibility.

Some officers do not want the responsibility, but they tend not to be able to handle the job - sometimes disastrously. Many other officers though, do want the responsibility along with the authority - but only a fool would want the responsibility without the authority or without the will to exercise it. "Responsibility without authority" is an untenable position in ANY job.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:34 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Active pursuit - then they don't need the landlord, or a warrant.
Active pursuit doesn't cover the kind of searches that went on in the aftermath; you know that as well as I do, Elmo.


We never saw any evidence of any such searches. The only thing we saw were videos of the police going into a house from a distance, and people - some of them posters here - acting as if it were some sort of outrage with no indication whatsoever as to whether any warrants or consent were had.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:47 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Khross wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Active pursuit - then they don't need the landlord, or a warrant.
Active pursuit doesn't cover the kind of searches that went on in the aftermath; you know that as well as I do, Elmo.


We never saw any evidence of any such searches. The only thing we saw were videos of the police going into a house from a distance, and people - some of them posters here - acting as if it were some sort of outrage with no indication whatsoever as to whether any warrants or consent were had.

I disagree. There was plenty of evidence, video and otherwise, that the Boston Police Department conducted wholesale door-to-door mandatory searches in several neighborhoods while attempting to the apprehend their suspects. They did this under the doctrine of active pursuit and investigative expediency.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:21 pm 
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Khross wrote:
I disagree. There was plenty of evidence, video and otherwise, that the Boston Police Department conducted wholesale door-to-door mandatory searches in several neighborhoods while attempting to the apprehend their suspects. They did this under the doctrine of active pursuit and investigative expediency.


I have not seen any such evidence, nor of how active pursuit was applied. I am not aware of any legal doctrine known as "investigative expediency".

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:12 pm 
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Diamondeye:

It wasn't a fabrication. It actually happened like that. I don't get why I'm being accused of lying?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:29 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
Diamondeye:

It wasn't a fabrication. It actually happened like that. I don't get why I'm being accused of lying?


Because your story is not credible.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:46 pm 
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Third parties may give consent in limited cases. The person granting consent must have common authority over the premises in order for the search to be valid. This typically applies to hotel management giving consent to perform a search. It does not, however, apply to a landlord giving consent to search a person's apartment.


I believe this, but what is the reasoning for "common authority" applying to hotel management as opposed to a landlord? Is it anything other than likelihood of catching an evasive suspect in a hotel vice one that would go and lease an apartment?

edit: tapatalk can get **** with their own nested quote functionality.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:12 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
Quote:
Third parties may give consent in limited cases. The person granting consent must have common authority over the premises in order for the search to be valid. This typically applies to hotel management giving consent to perform a search. It does not, however, apply to a landlord giving consent to search a person's apartment.


I believe this, but what is the reasoning for "common authority" applying to hotel management as opposed to a landlord? Is it anything other than likelihood of catching an evasive suspect in a hotel vice one that would go and lease an apartment?

edit: tapatalk can get **** with their own nested quote functionality.


I am not fully familiar with the legal reasoning, but basically it amounts to "an apartment is a home, a hotel room isn't." (normally, yes there can be exceptions and that's where we get court cases from) I am also not arguing the merits of the legal distinction, just pointing out that IS a distinction in current jurisprudence.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:41 am 
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My friend who was super pro security state and worked for the NSA now supports disarming most police.

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