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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:12 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I am not fully familiar with the legal reasoning, but basically it amounts to "an apartment is a home, a hotel room isn't."


I know from watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel, that this is correct. A vampire can freely enter an occupied hotel room, but requires permission to enter the apartment or house of a living human.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:22 am 
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...

hey I guess if it works.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:43 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
My friend who was super pro security state and worked for the NSA now supports disarming most police.


Of course he does. How very convenient. It's rather alarming to know that the NSA is hiring people with such poor critical thinking and analytical skills.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:12 pm 
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Ok, so what's the appropriate punishment for the linked assault?

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/12/06/pkg-cop-punch-caught-on-camera.king.html?hpt=hp_t4


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:35 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
My friend who was super pro security state and worked for the NSA now supports disarming most police.


Of course he does. How very convenient. It's rather alarming to know that the NSA is hiring people with such poor critical thinking and analytical skills.


You wouldn't know what they are if they were presented to you almost every day over multiple years on a forum you regularly engage in.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:


It hasn't been established that there was an assault. The matter is in dispute. The woman in question kicked the officer; he hit her back. It is not clear from the video (and the video appears heavily edited to fit in the news spot). The highway patrol felt that what he did was inconsistent with training and policy, but the prosecutor did not feel it warranted criminal charges. The officer's attorney says it was a reasonable response to her assault on him.

It might be an assault and warrant punishment; it might warrant punishment without being an assault, and it might not warrant punishment at all. We're not able to say based on the information available. If I had to guess, based just on what we know, I would say it's a case of unreasonable force used to control a combative subject, and the officer should be disciplined to some degree or other. However it's not an assault, since it apparently was in response to being kicked, so the need to control her did exist.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:44 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:


18 months imprisonment plus a $10k fine if it's a first offense. 36-48 months if there's a prior record of violent assault.

Oh, wait, do you mean the cop? In that case, two weeks' paid administrative leave.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:47 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:


18 months imprisonment plus a $10k fine if it's a first offense. 36-48 months if there's a prior record of violent assault.

Oh, wait, do you mean the cop? In that case, two weeks' paid administrative leave.


Don't you think that's a bit much for just a kick? You don't seem like a "give them the maximum" kind of guy.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:52 pm 
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Nah, I was being facetious, attempting to highlight the discrepancy between how cops and civilians get charged. My real answer is that I don't think jail time is warranted for either of them (with respect to the mutual assaults - she may well be guilty of whatever it was she was being arrested for), but the cop should probably be fired and personally sued if that really was a closed-fist punch he threw at her head.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:51 pm 
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Rafael wrote:
I believe this, but what is the reasoning for "common authority" applying to hotel management as opposed to a landlord? Is it anything other than likelihood of catching an evasive suspect in a hotel vice one that would go and lease an apartment?


I think it ultimately just boils down to the transience of the situation. If you were spending the night at a friend's house, could they consent to let the police enter the bedroom you were staying in? The rationale is probably that 4th amendment rights apply to residents, but not visitors. How permanent does a living arrangement have to be to consider someone a resident?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:23 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Rafael wrote:
I believe this, but what is the reasoning for "common authority" applying to hotel management as opposed to a landlord? Is it anything other than likelihood of catching an evasive suspect in a hotel vice one that would go and lease an apartment?


I think it ultimately just boils down to the transience of the situation. If you were spending the night at a friend's house, could they consent to let the police enter the bedroom you were staying in? The rationale is probably that 4th amendment rights apply to residents, but not visitors. How permanent does a living arrangement have to be to consider someone a resident?

The courts generally refuse to draw a solid line on issues like this, precisely because they know someone out there will try to game that line in an unintended way if they do. Rather, they draw the general principle and let individual situations shake out as they will.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:30 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Nah, I was being facetious, attempting to highlight the discrepancy between how cops and civilians get charged. My real answer is that I don't think jail time is warranted for either of them (with respect to the mutual assaults - she may well be guilty of whatever it was she was being arrested for), but the cop should probably be fired and personally sued if that really was a closed-fist punch he threw at her head.


I think there is not enough evidence available from the video we saw to make any determination at all about either of them.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:50 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:


It hasn't been established that there was an assault. The matter is in dispute. The woman in question kicked the officer; he hit her back. It is not clear from the video (and the video appears heavily edited to fit in the news spot). The highway patrol felt that what he did was inconsistent with training and policy, but the prosecutor did not feel it warranted criminal charges. The officer's attorney says it was a reasonable response to her assault on him.

It might be an assault and warrant punishment; it might warrant punishment without being an assault, and it might not warrant punishment at all. We're not able to say based on the information available. If I had to guess, based just on what we know, I would say it's a case of unreasonable force used to control a combative subject, and the officer should be disciplined to some degree or other. However it's not an assault, since it apparently was in response to being kicked, so the need to control her did exist.


Until the legal process is complete, I agree that it is in dispute.

That said, assuming she kicked the bejeesus out of him, she was handcuffed and in a patrol car. She was not totally secured, but was a minimal threat. Bottom line, I believe he was angry at having been kicked, and responded out of anger. I don't see any scenario where punching a handcuffed perp in a patrol car is an appropriate response.

How would this be treated in the wider world? If someone kicked me, and I laid them out, I would not expect the police to bother me about it. But that is primarily because I could make the case of an ongoing threat. That's a hard case to make here. In this situation, I would expect leniency based on the heat-of-the moment tit-for-tat exchange.

While cops should be better prepared to deal with this than the average citizen, and should be held to a higher standard - that relates to their occupation, which I'll come back to. I'd expect the same leniency for a cop in that situation as I would for myself. From a prosecutorial standpoint.

From an occupational standpoint, he failed here to conduct himself properly. Fired seems a bit harsh, but a substantial administrative leave, without pay, and an apology to the victim seems appropriate. Assuming this is the first such instance. Otherwise, he has no business being a cop if he can't control himself.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:46 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
That said, assuming she kicked the bejeesus out of him, she was handcuffed and in a patrol car. She was not totally secured, but was a minimal threat. Bottom line, I believe he was angry at having been kicked, and responded out of anger. I don't see any scenario where punching a handcuffed perp in a patrol car is an appropriate response.


Whether he was angry or not or responded out of anger isn't really important; what's important is "were the officer's actions reasonable under the circumstances" under Graham v. Connor. It's very easy to ascribe any motive we want to an officer when we don't like his actions; conversely unreasonable actions don't become ok just because the officer had honest or good intentions.

I certainly can imagine circumstances where a handcuffed person in a car might be a significantly greater danger, especially a much larger and stronger individual, but those don't really obtain here. However, in general, it's good to keep in mind that just because a person is in handcuffs does not mean they are controlled. I have seen small women in handcuffs manage to cause thousands of dollars in damage to the inside of a patrol car before. That still probably doesn't call for punching them in the face, but

Finally, there is a difference between "used excessive force in controlling a suspect" and "assaulted a suspect", the difference being "was the subject engaging in conduct the officer would reasonably need to use force to control?" She was, and that means that what the officer was doing was probably not an assault, even though it appears it probably was not reasonable. I stress "probably" to both though, because A) we don't have all the information and B) because it is possible to imagine actions by the officer that would be so unreasonable that they would be an assault. If, for example, he had shot her, or dragged her out of the car and smashed her face into the pavement, we would definitely recognize an assault since they go well beyond anything that could reasonably be related to stopping her from kicking. Neither of those situations or anything like them occurred though, so the appellation of "assault" is probably not accurate, and it should not be insisted upon - an offense should be described as it is, not based on the term that feels the most viscerally satisfying (and that means to people in general; I am not saying that's what you are trying to do here)

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How would this be treated in the wider world? If someone kicked me, and I laid them out, I would not expect the police to bother me about it. But that is primarily because I could make the case of an ongoing threat. That's a hard case to make here. In this situation, I would expect leniency based on the heat-of-the moment tit-for-tat exchange.


I think it's pretty obvious that if a woman came up to you in public and tried to kick you for some reason, and you hit her, that it would be self-defense, social attitudes towards striking women notwithstanding. The same would be true for the officer; in his case we might debate if pepper spray or a TASER or other techniques might be better than punching her, but an open situation is much more suited to deploying these devices than the inside of a car - and more importantly, we would be in the situation of trying to quibble over whether another response would have been more optimal after the fact, rather than viewing it from the perspective of the officer at the time.

Outside of certain sexual practices that are not germane to the issue, you would never be in a situation to have a person handcuffed in the first place. If you had someone handcuffed in the back of a car, it would be very hard for you to argue you were making an arrest. "How it would be handled for anyone else" isn't really relevant because it would be a fundamentally different situation. It's similar to any other situation which a person not properly permitted to perform the activity in the first place would not likely find themselves in. For example, if we evaluate the reasonability of the actions of pilots, we compare them to other pilots because the average person almost never finds themselves in the position of operating an aircraft in the first place.

While cops should be better prepared to deal with this than the average citizen, and should be held to a higher standard - that relates to their occupation, which I'll come back to. I'd expect the same leniency for a cop in that situation as I would for myself. From a prosecutorial standpoint.

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From an occupational standpoint, he failed here to conduct himself properly. Fired seems a bit harsh, but a substantial administrative leave, without pay, and an apology to the victim seems appropriate. Assuming this is the first such instance. Otherwise, he has no business being a cop if he can't control himself.


This is not an unreasonable stance, assuming that the full evidence available - not the least being an unedited video, and the officer's own explanation of his actions - is congruent with what we've already observed. However, the question of what he did or didn't do correctly from an occupational standpoint is exactly the question here, and while it seems that he didn't, we can't state that as undisputable fact. This is not to conclude that other evidence would mitigate the situation if it exists; it's possible that it would make it worse for him too.

Most importantly, we're missing his explanation of why he did what he did, and that has to be looked at in light of everything that he needed to do, which included his duty to control and transport a person he had placed under arrest, and the general lack of options for controlling a person who is kicking in the back of a car - there ARE options other than hitting the person, but they are limited, and not necessarily easy to execute. His side of the story cannot be looked at through a light of "well, the video shows this, so we're just going to let you have your say then dismiss it out of hand because video" either.

Fundamentally, video rarely tells the full story - in fact, it often tells far less of the story than people think it does. Unfortunately, video has a habit of making its way to the press and the public sans all the other contextual evidence that goes along with it, and it tends to deceive people into thinking its more complete than it actually is. It also has a tendency to be viewed as if the perspective and conditions of the viewer are the perspective and conditions of the officer. The officer rarely sees the situation from the camera's perspective, and he definitely does not have the advantage of getting to replay it over and over, nor go through the situation while sitting comfortably seated in front of a computer and knowing that it isn't actually him having to deal with it. In that sense, it's not really any different than replay in football - the players and referees are often judged overly harshly by laymen who can look at things over and over in slow motion. Or to take another example, people widely ***** about reporters getting shot up by attack helicopters in a war zone, and forget that a TV camera might look a lot more like a surface-to-air missile when you are the one facing getting shot down by it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:17 am 
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... oklyn.html


Why am I not surprised.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:14 pm 
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Another proud day for Baltimore.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:48 am 
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Again, a metropolitan cesspool that makes me wish the Batman franchise was real so that the League of Shadows could execute the duty of destroying that pit of wanton filth and ignorance.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:50 am 
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Nothing like killing an Asian cop and a Hispanic one out of anger at white cops.

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