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PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:59 am 
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It has been a hard road for women in Army Ranger School. All of the female volunteers have failed on their second attempt to pass the first phase of the traditionally, all-male infantry course, the Army announced Friday night.
The Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade held its first co-ed course of Army Ranger School on April 20 at Fort Benning, Georgia. Nineteen women and 380 men were pre-screened for the combat training course.
Three of the women failed to pass the Ranger Physical Fitness Assessment, a requirement to enter Ranger School. Eight out of 16 female soldiers completed the Ranger Assessment Phase, or RAP week, which consists of day and night land navigation, obstacle courses, skill tests and a 12-mile road march with a rifle, fighting load vest and rucksack weighing approximately 47 pounds.
But the remaining eight females weren't able to complete the first phase and advance to the second phase of the course. Instead, they were allowed to repeat the Darby Phase along with 101 male candidates.
Fort Benning officials announced May 29 that none of the eight passed the Darby Phase on their second attempt. Three of those females, along with five males, have been invited to start over on day one of the grueling course.
"This is normal course procedures and is used when students struggle with one aspect of the course and excel at others," according to the press release.
The next Ranger School class begins on Sunday, June 21, 2015.
The announcement comes one day after Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ray Odierno said that the Army will likely run a couple more pilots where females go through Ranger School.
Senior Army leaders recently decided to allow females to attend the historically male-only, infantry course. The effort is a result of former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta's January 2013 directive that all services open combat-arms roles to women that so far have been reserved for men. The services have until 2016 to decide how to execute this.
According to the release, 29 students, including five females, failed to meet the standards of the Darby Phase of Ranger School and will be dropped from the course.
"For a variety of reasons, these students were unsuccessful at meeting the standard -- some for leading their graded patrols, some for a poor evaluation of their teamwork from their peers, some for accumulating too many negative spot reports, and some for a combination of all three," the release states. "However, the vast majority who are being dropped from the course were unable to successfully lead a patrol. All students received multiple opportunities to lead a patrol as a squad leader or team leader."
The Darby Phase of Ranger School is 15 days of intensive squad training and operations in a field environment at Fort Benning.
The phase consists of a day for basic airborne refresher and sustained airborne training, as well as a day for an airborne operation for those Ranger students who are airborne qualified; a day for the Darby Queen, an advanced obstacle course; a day of techniques training; two days of cadre assisted patrols; three days of student led patrols; one day of retraining; three days of student led patrols; and two administrative days where the students are counseled on their performance during the phase.
Col. David G. Fivecoat, commander of the Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade, and Command Sgt. Major Curt Arnold addressed the Ranger students this week, Fivecoat said.
"The group that was unsuccessful was, of course, disappointed in their performance," Fivecoat said. "However, each Ranger student, whether successful or unsuccessful, learned more about themselves, leadership, and small unit tactics, and returns to the Army a better trained soldier and leader."


I hope they find someone capable, and I hope they don't give in and lower standards.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:00 am 
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Being a Ranger is honored because the standards are so high. I agree with you Rorinthas.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:01 am 
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I saw this earlier. I figured it would become some huge social justice warrior crusade.

Women are going to have a tough time cracking most of the specialized military rosters, whether that be rangers, SEALS, or what have you. They're dealing with generations of ingrained cultural attitudes that women don't belong on the battlefield - including other women who feel this way. Round One isn't going to be some Strong Independent Womyn success story where Demi Moore shaves her head and puts up with hazing and gang rape and graduates at the top of the class to show those evil misogynists what for. It's entirely likely that most women simply don't fit the psychological profile for special combat units, and the physical demands are extremely difficult to meet even with testosterone boosting performance.

But several of the women have been brought back for round three. That says a lot. They've failed twice, and are still trying. Not only that, but the army is still trying. The army isn't lowering standards just to appease people who want women in the rangers, and they're not keeping them out just to prevent women from being rangers. If they keep trying, one of them will make it. Dedication and tenacity are qualities the rangers are looking for, too.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:22 am 
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It has been a hard road for women in Army Ranger School. All of the female volunteers have failed on their second attempt to pass the first phase of the traditionally, all-male infantry course, the Army announced Friday night.
The Airborne and Ranger Training Brigade held its first co-ed course of Army Ranger School on April 20 at Fort Benning, Georgia. Nineteen women and 380 men were pre-screened for the combat training course.
Three of the women failed to pass the Ranger Physical Fitness Assessment, a requirement to enter Ranger School. Eight out of 16 female soldiers completed the Ranger Assessment Phase, or RAP week, which consists of day and night land navigation, obstacle courses, skill tests and a 12-mile road march with a rifle, fighting load vest and rucksack weighing approximately 47 pounds.
But the remaining eight females weren't able to complete the first phase and advance to the second phase of the course. Instead, they were allowed to repeat the Darby Phase along with 101 male candidates.
Fort Benning officials announced May 29 that none of the eight passed the Darby Phase on their second attempt. Three of those females, along with five males, have been invited to start over on day one of the grueling course.


This is confusing. None of the recruits passed on their second attempt at the course, but it says 8 passed on their first attempt.

So did zero pass, or eight?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:01 am 
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16 women entered round one. Eight of them failed and eight of them passed. All eight failed to complete round two, tried again and failed.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:47 am 
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I don't think that's it. It says the 8 who failed were allowed to repeat, but nine of them passed the second attempt.

It doesn't say what happened to the 8 who passed- it wouldn't be their second attempt.

Very unclearly written.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:02 am 
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I think 8 of the 16 washed out of the first week (RAP week). The remaining 8 failed to complete the first phase, which consists of that first week followed by the "Darby phase".

They were allowed to repeat the Darby phase, but failed the second time, too.

3 of those 8 are being invited to come back and try again from day 1, which is apparently standard procedure.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:51 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
I saw this earlier. I figured it would become some huge social justice warrior crusade.

Women are going to have a tough time cracking most of the specialized military rosters, whether that be rangers, SEALS, or what have you. They're dealing with generations of ingrained cultural attitudes that women don't belong on the battlefield - including other women who feel this way. Round One isn't going to be some Strong Independent Womyn success story where Demi Moore shaves her head and puts up with hazing and gang rape and graduates at the top of the class to show those evil misogynists what for. It's entirely likely that most women simply don't fit the psychological profile for special combat units, and the physical demands are extremely difficult to meet even with testosterone boosting performance.

But several of the women have been brought back for round three. That says a lot. They've failed twice, and are still trying. Not only that, but the army is still trying. The army isn't lowering standards just to appease people who want women in the rangers, and they're not keeping them out just to prevent women from being rangers. If they keep trying, one of them will make it. Dedication and tenacity are qualities the rangers are looking for, too.



It's not the cultural attitudes that are stopping them from passing the course, it's the courses themselves. Although there are people trying to change that, like Gen. Dempsey.

SEALs? Rangers? Hell, women can't pass the Corps' IOC; they're 0-29. Now all these outfits will have to explain themselves before Congress for having the gall to have courses that "exclude women". I'm not so sure that standards won't change for women.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:46 am 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Now all these outfits will have to explain themselves before Congress for having the gall to have courses that "exclude women". I'm not so sure that standards won't change for women.


Exactly as it should be. If they cannot explain themselves (i.e. demonstrate why the course represents a minimum necessary standard), then the standard should be changed.

It may not be necessary to have such a grueling course. For example, if 1,000 men and women want to be rangers, and you want 100, you need to start weeding them out. Rangers must have brains and brawn. If Alberta Einstein can't pick up a rifle, she's out - not enough brawn. If Arnold Schwarzenegger Jr cannot stop drooling on himself, he's out - not enough brains. But if the weed-out line is based primarily on brawn, such that you have far more brawn than is justifiably needed, then perhaps you should reduce the standards for brawn and increase the standard for brains. That could result in more women getting in.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:01 pm 
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I am okay with different physical standards, men and women are not equal in that regard.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:16 pm 
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For a job that relies heavily on physical capability, no, there should be no differing standards. You must be able, man or woman, to clear the bar. If you can't, then that's too bad. Train harder, come back later. You'll notice, I hope, that only a percentage of the men can pass the ranger physical testing.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:40 pm 
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You're right.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:06 pm 
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If the Standards are objectively overbearing , why is that only being discovered now?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:08 pm 
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Wasn't mentioned in this article, but I recall hearing on the radio that a number of the women who had to drop out of the physical testing did so due to the development of stress fractures from the weight/running combination.

So not something they could "train harder, come back later" for- something their skeletal frame was physically unable to take.

Not arguing that it should be made easier, but probably worth looking at, say, different patterns of weight distribution for different frames. Especially given that while many of the male soldiers suffer stress fractures from the loads, very few are on the hips- and a number of the female soldiers had hip fractures.

It's well known that load distribution needs to be different for men and women due to different biomechanics.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:28 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Exactly as it should be. If they cannot explain themselves (i.e. demonstrate why the course represents a minimum necessary standard), then the standard should be changed.


Except that they shouldn't need to explain why the standards are what they are - only to show that they are enforcing the standard the same way for everyone, women are being given the same chances to meet it, and that the standards were not suddenly changed just to make it harder for women.

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It may not be necessary to have such a grueling course. For example, if 1,000 men and women want to be rangers, and you want 100, you need to start weeding them out. Rangers must have brains and brawn. If Alberta Einstein can't pick up a rifle, she's out - not enough brawn. If Arnold Schwarzenegger Jr cannot stop drooling on himself, he's out - not enough brains. But if the weed-out line is based primarily on brawn, such that you have far more brawn than is justifiably needed, then perhaps you should reduce the standards for brawn and increase the standard for brains. That could result in more women getting in.


Getting more women in is not an inherently necessary goal, nor some sort of imperative. Women are being given a chance to meet the male standards, and those standards were developed by experts in the field over many, many decades. In fact, the standards are almost always in flux as more is learned, but that almost never translates to "it really doesn't need to be this hard".

It does need to be that hard. People that meet standards like that are the ones that prove that it can, in fact, be done. Combat may be like that. Combat will not make itself easier to let more women succeed - or more of anyone else, for that matter.

If the military has said that's the appropriate standard, then that's the appropriate standard. Period. If it can be shown the women are getting a different standard, or that they are not getting the same chance to meet it as the men then fine, deal with that, but the idea that "more women should pass" is absolutely wrong. It's high time people had their faces rubbed in this.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:48 pm 
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As for Ranger School itself, it's divided into phases with several variations of pre-ranger phse depending if the Soldier is assigned to an actual Ranger Battalion, is an officer or enlisted, etc. So the confusion over passing versus not passing probably is the press inaccurately describing the passing of pre-phases but not actual Ranger Phase I (Darby Phase).

I am pretty sure that it will not be long until at least some women pass, but I am not at all surprised that the first class didn't. The first class was almost guaranteed to have a large proportion of "I wanna be the first woman Ranger" types.

You cannot pass Ranger School if it's about self-aggrandizement. You cannot get through with that mentality. If you don't quit because the reality of just how **** hard it is makes you say "**** it", your peers will see that and peer you out. (and no, all these women didn't get peered by a bunch of angry males; it's like 1 or 2 people per class per phase that fail peers at most - and the women get equal say in peer evals)

A large number of these girls are Shannon Faulkner all over again. Shannon Faulkner did not care about making it through The Citadel, she cared about being the first woman admitted to The Citadel and about being the first woman to graduate. That is why she failed. After 4 hours she realized that she had to do everything between that first day and that last day and if you are there because you want your vagina to be the first vagina to succeed at something like that -

You.

Will.

Fail.

Faulkner spent 3 years in court trying to get into The Citadel - and on her first day it was obvious she had not thought it important to do any push-ups or sit-ups in preparation.

I was in the Corps of Cadets at Virginia Tech at that time. I had already completed a Freshman experience similar to what Faulkner had. I was a Junior then, getting ready for 6 weeks of 5 hours of sleep a night and constant physical activity under leadership assessment at camp in the summer of 1996. It's 20 years this month since I went to camp - and camp wasn't so bad becuase I proved to myself as a Freshman that I could take it. OUR corps of cadets, in 1995, had been admitting women for 22 years, and our women COULD take it because they were not there to prove a point with their vaginas.

Women who go through Ranger School becuase they want to be Rangers; they want to fight, they want to be infantry officers, and are dedicated to what they are doing will (in some cases) eventually succeed. Women who think they can make it because they play sports and have always gotten told great things about how tough girls are and are being encouraged by SJWs at Starbuck's who hate the military until its time for a vagina to pass Ranger School and would never even think of attempting it themselves are telling them so.

The military is not a social program. It is there to fight and win, and it is fair because when you treat people fairly, they fight better. That does not mean making it easier or making sure the right numbers of each group pass. It means making sure those that meet or exceed standards advance, and those that cannot, do not. It is an all-volunteer military. If you sign up, expect to meet the standards.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:57 pm 
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The enemy will not go easier on you because you're a woman. Either you can meet the physical standards or you can't. They are what they are. Some women will eventually pass it. They will be less common than men. That's how it is. The universe is not fair. Sexual dimorphism is a fact of nature.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:17 am 
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To be a Ranger, physical ability and leadership are the important aspects. They don't care if you can do Diff Eq. They care if you can get the job done, and when it all goes to hell, if you can pick up the lead and finish it when your superiors are down.

You have to be able to follow orders, do the near impossible, keep going after two weeks in the field with no sleep and low rations, and keep your head in the roughest of situations. Those soldiers train 48 weeks a year. Teamwork is key. If you can't jump out of a plane, crawl through a swamp, and swim across a lake, you won't make it. If you are just a follower you won't make it. I spent some time with my brother-in-law when he was an officer in the Rangers. I was truly amazed watching the precision and dedication to getting the job done among all of the men in his command. I was convinced that the smallest man among them could have hefted my 300 pound carcass and tossed me across the room. None of them were brash or arrogant. They were all well behaved soldiers. The confidence level was amazing. They didn't have to be macho or dominant in personality. The aura was one of supreme competence. After spending a couple weeks on the outskirts of that, I understood much better why the Ranger tab is a prized achievement and a sign of outstanding ability.

The first women to earn that tab are going to be at least as amazing as the men that have worn it all these years.

We all are fallible and human. Very few Rangers stay close to the condition they were in when they trained and worked out full time 48 weeks a year. The great majority of them will remain good strong citizens after their tours.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 10:59 am 
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NephyrS wrote:
Wasn't mentioned in this article, but I recall hearing on the radio that a number of the women who had to drop out of the physical testing did so due to the development of stress fractures from the weight/running combination.

So not something they could "train harder, come back later" for- something their skeletal frame was physically unable to take.

Not arguing that it should be made easier, but probably worth looking at, say, different patterns of weight distribution for different frames. Especially given that while many of the male soldiers suffer stress fractures from the loads, very few are on the hips- and a number of the female soldiers had hip fractures.

It's well known that load distribution needs to be different for men and women due to different biomechanics.

Bones can also be strengthened via training. So "train harder, come back later" is, in fact, the appropriate advice.

Also, the 6'4", 250lb. guy might go down, and the team needs his gear more than yours. You've still gotta be able to carry the load.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:33 pm 
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I didn't say they shouldn't be able to carry the load, I said the distribution needed to be different.

The Marines have been working with that in their desert exercises.

Shifting the distribution of weight from the hips to the shoulders drastically reduced hip stress fractures. It's not about the strength of the bones, it's about the angle difference of hips in men and women.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:40 pm 
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One other thing - the idea that we should emphasize "brains" over "brawn" and that would let more women pass is completely laughable.

First, women are not any more "brainy" than men.

Second, Ranger School is not one endless strength contest. In fact, once you get past the initial phases, there's little PT. It's day after day of patrolling and tactics where you get (in theory) 4 hours of sleep a night but in reality get about 8 hours of sleep a week.

During that time, you have to take your turn in various platoon leadership positions, and when not in a leadership position, you have to function in whatever other job you were assigned.

As much as people like to imagine infantry soldiers as dumb grunts, there is a lot more to patrolling than just walking quietly through the woods and looking for the enemy. The Army doesn't entrust even a squad to someone below E6 by MTOE - and you get to be an E6 after about 5-10 years in depending on circumstances. A platoon is lead by a 2nd or 1st Lieutenant, but they have to make it all the way through their own training - and they have an experienced platoon sergeant that really runs things so they can learn.

Trying to run a platoon when you're soaking wet, have eaten 1 MRE and slept 3 hours over the previous 72, and are dealing with peer leadership issues (there's no rank in a ranger class; you don't even WEAR rank) is much, much harder than it sounds - especially since you're dealing with a tactical scenario, and things can suddenly and rapidly change. You may be so tired you think the tree you're standing next to is a candy machine, and yet you have to complete your mission (and yes, people actually do hallucinate like that in Ranger School).

Male advantages in strength and speed don't really mean all that much aside from the aforementioned "how heavy a load can you carry?" but even there if you're smart you already give stronger, larger guys heavier stuff like crew-served weapon components than weaker guys. The PT test you have to pass on the first day of Ranger school is only slightly more challenging than a standard Army PT test.

The physical challenges of Ranger School ARE mental challenges. How you approach it mentally largely determines your success as long as you're basically competent and don't get injured. Chaplains pass Ranger school, and chaplains are about the least tactical people in the entire Army. (I've run into chaplains that have a hard time remembering what "formation" is).

That's why women who want to be the first woman through are not going to pass. They are not in the right place mentally. I saw kids quit the Corps of Cadets, withdraw from Virginia Tech, and go home the first day of Cadre Week. For many people, 3 hours of someone yelling at you and teaching you to march is just too much. For about 99% of people, Ranger School is too much. If you can't do it as is, then you don't belong there. If that means it takes 25 years for someone with a vagina to get a tab, then that's how it is.

And when she does get it, she'll deserve it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:42 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
I didn't say they shouldn't be able to carry the load, I said the distribution needed to be different.

The Marines have been working with that in their desert exercises.

Shifting the distribution of weight from the hips to the shoulders drastically reduced hip stress fractures. It's not about the strength of the bones, it's about the angle difference of hips in men and women.


While there's no doubt some truth to this, it's also not likely to be a panacea. Different men need to carry loads quite differently as it is. It's more important to tailor the load to the size and strength of your troops regardless of their gender. Even if no women are present, a soldier that's overburdened is a liability.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:01 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Exactly as it should be. If they cannot explain themselves (i.e. demonstrate why the course represents a minimum necessary standard), then the standard should be changed.


Except that they shouldn't need to explain why the standards are what they are - only to show that they are enforcing the standard the same way for everyone, women are being given the same chances to meet it, and that the standards were not suddenly changed just to make it harder for women.


No, Congress provides oversight. The military has to be able to justify it's program if queried. For the ranger program, it may be that the rangers need to carry X lbs on a run. But perhaps too many men can do this, so they set the bar at 2X lbs to weed out some of the recruits. If many of the women can meet the strategic minimum of X lbs, but few can meet 2X, then it's worth taking another look at the weed-out strategy. The military might be better served, given the changing pool of recruits, to make the standard 1.5X and higher academic testing scores.

But regardless, yes - the military must explain itself to Congress.

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If the military has said that's the appropriate standard, then that's the appropriate standard. Period.


LMAO, no that's not how it works. The military regularly needs to defend its standards to Congress. That's a good thing.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:14 am 
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No one seems to have mentioned that this female trial is basically for research purposes and as such they probably won't get the kind of female applicants that actually want to be Rangers. If a woman passes, they'll let her wear the Ranger tab, but they're still not going to allow her to serve in combat in an actual Ranger battalion.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:16 am 
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No one is mentioning it because it's bs

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