The Glade 4.0

So, I feel like there's a lot to talk about, rant about, argue, and discuss, and I can definitely see why the cast has been exhorting their fans to let others experience it fresh and unspoiled.

So let's keep the specifics in here, to avoid crosstalk for those who won't be able to see it right away, but might still be interested in generalized reactions in the other thread.

I'm.. conflicted. I need to let this simmer and digest. I don't feel like it was an overwhelming hit with me, but it definitely nailed some bits, and it wasn't an abhorrent abomination that must be purged from fandom.

I'll revisit this in the morning, right now I need to go to bed.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Alright, now that I'm not ready to crash...

So, Star Wars happened. Or, at least, "Star Wars" happened. I'm not sure which, yet. Maybe typing this out will help me decide.

Let's start off with the good. Journeys were heroed. A legendary sword called out, and was taken up by a new chosen one, a young orphan from a desert planet. A mentor was killed in front of his helpless, onlooking protegee. X-Wings fought TIE Fighters, the Millennium Falcon was chased. A droid was given crucial data with the mission to avoid capture, and found an ally who will (presumably) grow formidable in the future to help complete its mission. The mentor sought assistance at a watering hole that attracts a diverse array of aliens, and attracts the attention of the spies of his enemies while there. And at the end, her mentor dead, the young hero(ine) seeks out the wise master to study the ways of the Force.

All of these things are undeniably Star Wars, and are unmistakably very deliberate parallels drawn to A New Hope, specifically. Again, I'm not sure whether this is what I wanted from an Episode VII Star Wars movie, but I suppose each of those parallels was successful regardless of the merits of the approach that dictated they be made.

Then, there were missed opportunities. Many of these, I feel, were made more glaring by the way that there were parallels being drawn willy-nilly. Like the line when Leia tells Han he still drives her crazy. Where was the "I know" reply? It was begging for it, screaming out to the savvy audience for it to be made... and it could have been delivered with a different stress, a different tone, to create this really tender moment that hearkens back to the Leia/Han relationship, and Han's character, and could have spoken volumes as to how that relationship worked, or didn't, in the intervening years... and instead, all we got was silence.

There were missteps and glaring plot holes. Why did we send a single squadron of X-Wings to attack a city-sized target? Did the Resistance just not see the need to update/keep its old bombers in service? Instead, the plan of attack is to... strafe this big hardened building on this military installation of a planet with lasers, and wonder why it's resisting damage? Did the proton torpedoes get removed from the T-70 model, speaking of?

Not to mention, did somebody neglect to tell Mr. Abrams that these are all spaceships? The ONLY action that takes place in space was when Han & Chewie's freighter gobbled up the Falcon. All three (three!) of the major dogfights/spaceship chase scenes took place at an altitude of less than 500 feet from a planet's surface. The Millennium Falcon doesn't fly, by the way, so much as it kind of bounces around off the ground a bunch. WTF? No wonder it's always breaking down, guys. TIE Fighters in atmosphere are the most preposterously dumb thing ever invented. Just say no.

I'm still annoyed at the T-70 X-Wing redesign. I rolled my eyes at the anti-personnel turret on the fighter craft. That just screamed "Mary-Sue fanfic" to me. I still think the split turbine intake (complete with clearly non-functional fan blades) is the stupidest thing ever. I don't mind the way the wings are split down the center instead of stacked at all; that's a change that I think plays well, for those who notice. The bottom-loading astromech slot looks way more practical, too.

I'm left wondering, as well, about the wisdom of making Kylo Ren a whiny, petulant child of a villain. The outcry that went up when Darth Vader's origin was made to be that of a spoiled, whiny brat who turned evil when authority told him he couldn't do what he wanted would have made me wary of trying to set up a new antagonist that literally throws lightsaber temper tantrums when things don't go his way. Maybe they'll salvage this in the next two, but I feel like they completely undermined him in this one, and that will be difficult to recover.

I think the thing I'm most disappointed with, though, is the treatment of lightsaber combat, here. On some level, I can recognize and get behind the notion that it would be jarring to see the art of lightsaber combat go from fast and acrobatic in the prequels, to slow and stilted in the OT, and then *back* to the acrobatic fencing of the prequels for the follow-up trilogy. The apologetic explanation for the difference between the prequels and the OT is that the training and bulk of the knowledge was lost with the demise of the Jedi; that Obi-Wan and Darth Vader are not youthful and athletic knights in the OT (well, Obi-Wan isn't; Darth Vader is hampered by his cybernetics, which skew towards uncanny strength rather than agility and reflexes), and that Luke simply never had time on Dagobah to receive extensive lightsaber training. And that extends fine into the Force Awakens -- but the criminal act here, for me, is that Kylo Ren, who has had training from Luke and must have come into conflict among Luke and his pupils as he fell and broke from them, is more-or-less matched by not just a gifted latent Force talent who has literally never held a lightsaber before, but also a non-Force User who has never trained with one, either.

And speaking of that latent Force talent; apparently, you don't need training to become a Jedi, you just need to have heard some stories about them to learn to use the Force yourself. In about five minutes. I honestly like the Rey character a lot, and I look forward to seeing her exploits in the follow-ups, but this really made me mad at J.J. This isn't a matter of latent Force sensitivity being unconsciously used to give somebody the appearance of fast reflexes or gifted piloting; we're talking untrained use of mind control and telekinesis, based on a training that consisted of "Yeah, the Force is real."

Who else was way underwhelmed with Captain Phasma? I mean, talk about hyping something up, making a huge deal out of the casting and whatnot, and then having zero interesting screen time. This is the sort of thing that makes everybody cynical about the merchandising, guys.

Oh, also, I'm royally pissed off that Wedge didn't make a return. I'm not sure whether Denis Lawson was approached and said no, or whether nobody cared.

So, who else? What'd you think? What did you call? (Oh, yeah, I was going to write about how disappointed I was with how telegraphed a few of the things I'm sure J.J. thought would be clever "gotcha" twists were, but this is a long enough post right now...)

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

A couple of things, in response to Kaffis:

The new Xwings did use proton torps. They were the pink-ish things fired on the initial "bombing run" and they were distinctly different than the red/orange laser blasts.

The reason they only sent a single squadron is because, that's all the Resistance had. C3P-0 even says, we'll never survive without the entire Republic Fleet. But the Republic couldn't give any ships to the Resistance, or else it would look like they were fully supporting them. I'll admit, it's a very weak explanation. But it is explained, at the very least. Why the Republic can't support the Resistance in an official capacity is beyond me. The First Order is clearly opposed to the Republic and everything it stands for, and I can't imagine why they couldn't deploy a fleet to protect their citizens. Especially after the first order had blown up a handful of planets already.

I loved the callbacks and homages to the original trilogy. Seeing the original characters (and ship) that we all know and love really brought a smile to my face. And there were more than a few cheers in the theater when they showed up for the first time. I also loved Finn and Rey, and thought they did an excellent job. Poe was fantastic, and had a certain swagger that reminded me of another young hot-shot pilot named, Han Solo. And BB-8 practically stole the show.

I was also disappointed with Kylo Ren. It seemed like they had him channeling Vader a bit TOO much. I agree that he came off as a bit, whiny, which may have undermined his character, a bit. Which is a shame, because he has the potential to be a fantastic villain. I mean, look at what he did to the blaster bolt


I know we are supposed to believe that Rey has never touched a lightsaber, or been trained with the force. I don't think that's actually the case. Judging from the flashback she had, of being forced to stay behind on Jakku, and someone she clearly cares about is jetting away in a shuttle - I think that we will find out some very interesting things about her past, in the coming films. More specifically, I think we will find out more about her *ahem* heritage. I believe she is much more connected to the Skywalkers and Solos than we are led to think. I believe, at one point or another, she had some force training. And I believe, that she has either repressed these memories, or had them taken from her in an effort to hide/protect her.

Personally, I believe Rey is Luke's daughter, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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"I Live, I Love, I Slay, and I Am Content."
- Conan the Barbarian

Okay, I was trying to remember if I saw proton torps, and wasn't specifically remembering it, nor any dialogue calling out their use. I'm happy to concede that one.

Likewise, I'd actually made the point when my friend griped about the single squadron thing that maybe a significant portion of the Republic fleet was based on the systems that got blown up in the initial round. I agree, whether that's the case, or whether the Republic is fearful of openly opposing the First Order, it's poorly explained on-screen. Maybe this is something where we'll get more detail in a novelization or something.

The cheers were definitely there in our theater, too. It's why I love opening night crowds for Star Wars releases.

On the subject of Rey -- I also suspect she'll be revealed to as Luke's daughter in upcoming films. Or at the very least, connected in some way to the Skywalker legacy. I became convinced of it when she had that strong reaction to Anakin's lightsaber. (Which I, to my great personal satisfaction, called in a verbal aside right before she opened the box -- yay for recognizing the right shape and size of a lightsaber box -- though I didn't expect it to be Anakin's, specifically...) Your position that she may have had lightsaber training before does bring up an interesting theory that I've just now had in reaction, though -- she could, indeed, have been mid-way through training with Luke's batch of new Jedi (and this doesn't require her to be a Skywalker; it can work more generally) when Ben turned and Luke made the decision to vanish. Luke could have decided, in reaction to his failure with Kylo, that he wasn't worthy/ready/responsible enough to train new Jedi, and scattered his former students across the galaxy, using the Force to either wipe their memory or suggest they forget their time with him and training.

That would, actually, solve my issues with her quick non-study of the Force. It would introduce another gripe about the tiredness and contrived nature of amnesia as a plot device for protagonists, but that one is a much smaller magnitude strike against the film.

Speaking of "Ben", I suspect it's my long-standing and heart-felt affection for Obi-Wan (Ewan is the shining light of the prequels, and would be sufficient reason by himself to not discount or banish them from head-canon and recognition even if one were opposed to all else) talking, but the revelation of Kylo Ren's birth name, the name that Han and Leia gave their son, was more gut-wrenching to me than the murder of Han himself.

It might also have been, of course, that I'd been steadily more and more sure that Han was going to die as the film progressed. I mean, it starts with just the seed of "Harrison Ford is ancient, looks like hell, and obviously can't handle the demands of being a primary character in an action franchise anymore", then comes the sad recognition that they're setting him up as Obi-Wan as he shows some respect and admiration of the potential Rey shows as a pilot and begins to take her under his wing. And then, the deal is cinched when he offers a spot on his crew (in a wonderful little moment) that gets turned down with a rationale we all know as an audience won't fly (Rey won't be allowed to return home and fade into obscurity again), while simultaneously recognizing that Han, Chewie, and Rey won't have a future together as a trio of scoundrels.

The Bridge Scene (which I've resolved to refer to it as until spoilers are more welcome in public conversation) also demonstrates, to me, the damage that was done with the choice of characterization for Ren. If he were intimidating and ominous, the invitation for Han to come out there and make the attempt to redeem him could have come across as ruthless calculation by the villain who recognized their mission; by appealing to Han's desire to save his son, Kylo Ren could have been stalling for the time the weapon needed to fire successfully in a clever gambit. Instead, the whiny kid just wanted to air out his daddy issues with a petulant extension of false hope.

More minor, nitpicky, but still deeply held gripes about dialogue choices: At least in the Bridge scene, but I think a couple other places, Han (and Leia, if elsewhere) talks about there being "light" still in their son. Wrong! There is a light side of the Force, but the proper and established Star Wars lexicon for discussing redeemability of individuals is whether there is still "good" in them.

And finally, to end my reply on a good note -- I agree, Poe was fantastic. I rolled my eyes at his continuous-shot eight-kills in ten seconds performance that stretched my suspension of disbelief at the fight on... whatever the planet with Maz Kanata's establishment was. And he was a little more excitable (in the cheering while flying sense) than I'd expect a storied veteran ace to be. But the swagger with which he comported himself was really great, and he had good lines and interactions with the rest of the cast. He reminds me in some senses of Han, as you say, but I think he's the new improved Wedge, with more screentime. And I'm okay with that, if so (aside from, as I noted above, my disappointment that Wedge isn't a grizzled wing commander or admiral in the briefing or war room).

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

Yea, the "torps" moved at a considerably slower speed than the laser blasts. So, I'm assuming that's what they were, or at least, some sort of warhead/explosives.



I'm glad I wasn't the only one that was unsettled by the "light in him" comments.

And as far as Poe/Wedge is concerned, I half expected them to reveal that he was related to Wedge in some way. It would certainly explain his piloting skills. There was a book in the EU (I, Jedi perhaps???) that had one of the characters comment about how amazing it was that Wedge was such a good pilot, and that he did it without the Force. Wedge has always been one of my favorites, even before reading about all of his adventures in the EU. I, too, was a bit disappointed that he wasn't in this new movie in some capacity.

And we both know, Wedge would never willingly accept a position that wouldn't let him fly, anymore.

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"I Live, I Love, I Slay, and I Am Content."
- Conan the Barbarian

Wedge is definitely my favorite character for precisely that reason. He's the Captain America of Star Wars, without the vita-rays. (So maybe he's the Black Widow of Star Wars, hrm.) Everybody around him has super-powers, seems like, and he hangs with them by.. just.. being awesome at the one thing he does. For this reason, I'm glad Poe isn't Poe Antilles. It reinforces that, while the Force is a genetic (or familial, at least) legacy, excellence can be pursued by anybody. If the Jedi are the ultimate old boys club, Wedge is the star of the meritocratic ideal in Star Wars' aristocratic narrative.

I agree, the Wedge the EU built up would definitely never accept a position that wouldn't let him fly. But we all know what happened to the EU. I could definitely see him refusing a commission in favor of staying in command of the fighter wing, driving the desk to keep his pilots in line and with a strong advocate, Christopher Blair-style.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

I didn't get the whiny vibe from Kylo Ren. He played the guy he killed expertly. Pulled him in close, had him drop his guard. Yes, he has anger issues, but he's not Vader. Anger is of the dark side, and he has a double helping of it, due to his insecurities.

It was one of those rare movies that didn't have a "really movie?" moment for me. It all worked well together, and was pretty internally consistent all around.

A much better Star Wars movie than all the prequels put together. From the opening crawl, simple, elegant, "This happened, these are the baddies, we now join our heroes on Jakka."

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Holy shitsnacks!

Who are you, Rey?


My only complaint is a problem JJ consistently has now: a lack of understanding concerning the immense distance between stars.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

I did love the little bits of humor interspersed throughout.

The two stormtroopers coming up on the room where Rey had escaped from, and Ren was in the process of destroying... those two dudes just noping the **** out was awesome.

"And I'm dropping my blaster."

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Holy shitsnacks!

Anybody else recognize the voice of the stormtrooper upon which Rey used her first mind trick?

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

There was the small matter of the blaster bolts in him. I don't think he was full strength. I think Chewbacca shot him on the bridge.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Sounded a lot like Bruce Campbell.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Think more British. And higher grossing at the box office.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Yeah, that was Daniel Craig's cameo

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"I Live, I Love, I Slay, and I Am Content."
- Conan the Barbarian

I assume that is why they made a point of showing him bleeding all over the snow.

Honestly, I was in love with the movie until it happened. I knew he was dead as soon as he went out on that bridge. I wasn't expecting that but as I think about it, I am sure Ford asked for it. I doubt he wants to spend the final years of his life playing Han Solo. If you all remember, there was some doubt he would even appear in the film, then he ended up being in most of it. He did a damn fine job of it.

I think more than anything, the look on Luke's face at the end describes how I felt about the movie. The pain I saw there...I felt it.

Also...while they didn't say the name of the planet...did they blow up Coruscant??

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Raell Kromwell

Not just Coruscant. The entire system, I think.

It wasn't Coruscant. They called it the "Hosnian system."

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

SO...here is my biggest question. Who found that lightsaber? Last time we saw it was in Empire, flying away with Luke's hand.

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Raell Kromwell

I'd put odds on an ugnaut.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Probably the cousin of the dude who scoured Endor for the funeral pyre's crunchy bits.


Yet more points against. What kind of low-rent lightsaber-wielding villain gets hit by blaster fire?

Speaking of Chewie's bowcaster, though -- did anybody else notice the way they casually tossed all the lore that implied one needs to be of considerable physical strength to wield one effectively? Han borrowing it, using it to great effect, and then making a big deal to comment on his admiration for its performance and feel begs the question, "Why doesn't the whole damned galaxy use those, if they're so much better and don't have the drawback that was given to them early on in the EU (most likely by West End)?"

And Taly, don't get me started on the faster-than-hyperspace planet-killing laser blasts. I facepalmed so hard, the person behind me had to awkwardly ask me to get out of their lap.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

He was a bit distracted, having just committed patricide. Also, Chewie's a good shot

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Holy shitsnacks!

No one has ever claimed that bowcaster shots can be deflected with a lightsaber?

I'm not sure I like the "catching" of a blaster bolt in mid flight.

They've certainly improved the armament on TIE fighters in 40 years and the X-wings are a lot more maneuverable.

Captain Phasma was a worthless addition, I expected there to be more of her-- and what soldier (and apparently a loyal one) is willing to shut down the shields on the base just to save their own skin.

Why do blaster rifles now come with lightsaber-blocking sections?

I too had problems with the whole concept of Starkiller base. (and the fact that these energy beams/torpedoes whatever can be seen from the ground star systems away.

Wanted to know more about Lor San Tekka--and Rey. much more.

Maz Kanat stole every scene she was in.



There

Saw it a second time to watch it with my brother and his girlfriend. It held up to a second viewing better than I was worried it might. Also, most of the dialogue passed muster; I had the impression that a lot of more of it fell flat or was bothersome, but it really only came down to two or three lines. (The one where Finn is annoyingly flipping out about being the one in charge, here, Captain Phasma, I'm in charge! I'm in charge, now! I'm in charge! being the biggest offender...)

Still griping about missed opportunities. Still annoyed at things. Still willing to call Abrams an idiot about others. Willing to accept it into the Star Wars fold despite its flaws, much like Revenge.

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"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades

I think you can take all the super good moments from the Prequels, edit them together into one 45 minuteish movie... and it *still* would only be about a third as good as TFA.

The characters all felt more real, the VFX felt weighty, the virtual cameras racked focus and zoom (something ZOIC was amazeballs at from BSG and Serenity), the wipes were classic Star Wars... this... *felt* more Star Warsy than any of the prequels.

Also, Finn was a huge dork. And he was awesome.

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Holy shitsnacks!

Arrrr! I have Alan Dean Foster's novelization in epub form. (Yay! He did the original novelization for Star Wars in 1977, ghostwriting for George Lucas.) Maybe some of my questions about the ridiculous Starkiller base will be answered here.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █