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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:57 am 
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Darkroland wrote:
FarSky wrote:
Snerk.

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Yeahhhhhhh, someone has been drinking the Facebook kool-aid.


Do people not even remember Myst or The 7th Guest? CD-ROM drives had a hard time convincing people to make the switch. When a very popular game was released as CD-ROM only, suddenly there was a massive boom in cd drive sales.

Do people not even remember 1996? Do they not remember a super-expensive, very non-essential piece of computer hardware called a "3D Acceleration card" pioneered by companies like 3DFX? It might not be as expensive as a Rift (still, adjusting for inflation you are looking at around $460.00 today).

If it makes giant leaps forward in gaming, gamers will absolutely pay. If anything, college-age gamers are the ones with the most disposable income.

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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:28 pm 
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At this point, with the prior price set by Oculus with no VR controllers, no room scale VR, I'm fully expecting the vive to drop at 900$. When it does, I'm guessing it will "legitimize" the cost of the Oculus.

Unfortunately, the backlash was entirely due to Palmer's statement (that basically set the expectation), and then him never adjusting that or communicating that they had decided to release a much higher quality unit than they were originally shooting for. It's actually much better for consumers in the long run (to set the standard for VR as higher overall), but takes a ding initially.

Regardless, I'm sure all these first year VR units are going to sellout. I know the vive is going to have to be pretty high to dissuade me from picking one up.


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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:39 pm 
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Also, this is pretty suspect:

http://www.roadtovr.com/sony-playstation-vr-price-leak-800-error-amazon/


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:17 pm 
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I saw an interesting tidbit the other day -- the Rift is backordered for 4 months at this point in its preorder cycle.

Good news for Facebook, I suspect.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:30 am 
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All my poor, college-age gamer friends are dropping $100 on freakin keyboards these days. I think they'll manage to find some money for VR when it gets big.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:42 am 
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And HTC/Valve announced earlier this week that the consumer release of the Vive will ship April 1st for $800. That's the headset, the 2 room-scale trackers, and the motion controllers.

Kudos to them shipping the motion controllers as part of the release package, I'm interested to see what that forces on Oculus when it gets its Touch controllers to market. If those controllers aren't pretty cheap, that's got to be a nice perceived win for Vive. And that's not even bringing up the advantage of having the motion controllers standard across all users of the Vive, vs. an add-on for the Rift.

I get the feeling that if Facebook is smart, they'll eat the loss on offering Touches free to all Rift pre-orderers, and then *maybe* consider switching the bundled X-Box controller out for Touches when the Touch is shipping. That'll be a logistical nightmare, and it might burn some games that were developing for the standard X-Box controller, but I feel like the advantage of unifying the platform under a gesture controller (that sounds like it's probably a bit better and more innovative and natural than the Vive controllers) would play out over the long term.

In any event, Valve has also added headset compatibility and "sitting/standing/room-scale" sub-categories to its VR category in Steam, which is a nice touch. We'll see whether Valve's open VR standard (that can support Rift) takes off or whether we see it devolve into competing closed gardens, with no attention paid to non-Rift-SDK Rift support.

It'll also be interesting to see how people feel about room-scale VR in the environment of their own homes. Up 'till now, people have only experienced it (and generally raved about it) in wide open convention showroom spaces, with demo staff on hand to help with cable management and so on. Perhaps I'm not typical, but my computer desk isn't the same proposition as my living room, so while the Wii was a workable sell, I really don't see where or how I'd use room-scale in my own home. And I'm a suburban home-owner, not even an apartment-dweller, which I'd imagine would have even more trouble clearing and dedicating space to get the 15'x15' experience. How well will the room-scale VR concept and interface work in a smaller space? Does it lose its compelling immersion? Is it's scalability subject to the skill of the developer? And so on.

Exciting times, to be sure. Now, we get to wait and see how April turns out when these start getting delivered. And we get to get the popcorn ready for Sony's price announcement.

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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:30 pm 
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From what I've read, they'll be focusing a lot on scaleability with the room-scale, everything from a relatively small area up to 15x15.

I have to say, after trying a vive out, I'm preordering. The presence is amazing, and I can't even imagine VR without the 1:1 hand tracking at this point. It's amazingly immersive.


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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:01 pm 
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Darkroland wrote:
From what I've read, they'll be focusing a lot on scaleability with the room-scale, everything from a relatively small area up to 15x15.

I have to say, after trying a vive out, I'm preordering. The presence is amazing, and I can't even imagine VR without the 1:1 hand tracking at this point. It's amazingly immersive.

I think I may not have been clear. Yes, the Lighthouse technology is definitely designed to be remarkably scaleable. But how much care and attention does a developer have to put into their UI to make the experience work in differently sized environments?

To use an example -- let's say that I'm supposed to be able to walk around my room to, I don't know, investigate a crime scene -- maybe in a Heavy Rain-type game. They map out the game world area to be roughly the same size as their target room size of, I don't know, 12x12. So in a 12x12 room, I can walk around the entire scene at basically one-to-one, and it's really cool and immersive and intuitive.

Now, my neighbor has his setup in a smaller room. His room is 10x10, with 2 feet taken up by his computer desk. How does the game map this 10x8 area onto its 12x12 space? Maybe the API takes care of it with just a straight scaling. Does that get disorienting? After all, not only is my neighbor's movement not one-to-one as the developers were targeting, but the scaling factor is different depending on which direction you move. That could get really trippy and potentially even nauseating, especially if the Lighthouse system autodetects an even more oblique space like 6x12. Maybe the API doesn't take care of it automatically, because of quirks like this, and it's judged that it's better to let the developers handle it in a way that is tailored to their games' needs.

So now, maybe developer A decides to keep the scaling factors the same, and only recognizes input in an 8x8 space for my neighbor. Developer B decides that they'll introduce some kind of scrolling system when my neighbor stands two feet from my a wall, to avoid scaling at all. Are these adequate solutions? Maybe one gets implemented poorly -- Developer B's got a great idea, but they don't account well for spaces bigger than the 12x12 target space, and so if you go out of the center of your room, you clip through the intended constraints of the space and start seeing culled faces and such in the game environment.

That's what I was talking about when I said scaleability, and how it's handled, will be important. Not the tech factor of the Lighthouse hardware actually detecting position in different sized rooms, which I've read enough about to be confident Valve is on top of. But just because Valve is on top of this kind of consideration doesn't mean that every developer they give their APIs to will be, and that'll reflect on the relative value of the Lighthouse room-scale thing. The tech can be cool as hell but still end up with **** implementations with software. Just like the Wii and Kinect can be awesome and powerful hardware with paradigm-shifting potential and end up either gimmicky, ignored, or used for dance games.

I totally agree with you on the hand tracking thing. I think that Oculus may have made a serious misstep in fracturing their install-base with regards to their Touch hardware. It's one thing to say "Hey, guys, we got started on this late -- initially we thought the 3rd party solutions (from Razer et al) were going to be more mature and interoperable, so when we realized they weren't going to be, we were coming into it a bit late to hit our headset's launch window. But we're committed to delivering the Oculus Touch experience to everybody when it's ready so that our game developers can count on you having the best, most intuitive, and most immersive hand-tracking input system to pair with the headset you're buying. To make sure that happens, we're including it in the Oculus Rift package, and if you're scheduled to get your Rift pre-order delivered before they're ready in the Summer, we'll ship them to you separately on our dime. Also, we've partnered with Microsoft to include a top-notch game controller in the meantime."

It's quite another thing to say "Yeah, we think that having standardized controls is important, so here's the best traditional game controller that doesn't really play into the VR thing very naturally in the long run. But wait till you see the accessory to our platform that comes out in the Summer, just in time for developers to ignore it as irrelevant and not part properly part of the Rift experience."

Now, Oculus might surprise me and recover somehow. Maybe that'll come by leveraging their control over access to their Oculus Store -- after the Touch comes out, they could certainly say "Okay, everybody, you've got 6 months to integrate Touch controls if you want to continue to be sold through our platform." Or they could say, "Starting in September, any game added to the Oculus store needs to support all current Oculus hardware."

The good news for Oculus might turn out to be that the Oculus Touch can keep up with the Vive's hand controllers in every featureset, and the translation between the two can be handled via API well enough that converting Valve's OpenVR stuff over to the Touch is trivial. Then, if it turns out that the gesture and finger pose features on the Touch are big enough deals, they might be able to penetrate the user input market of Vive owners, too, since it'll be a standalone SKU.

It'll be an exciting year, is all I know for sure. And probably a bit rocky until this all gets ironed out and we're looking at a fairly stable platform with incremental inter-operable periodic upgrades.

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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:03 pm 
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I agree completely, and I think the quality of software in the next 2-3 years will vary WILDLY. One of the main reasons I'm picking up the Vive is because Valve is backing it. They already seem to be pretty on top of their VR API software, and I'm hoping that translates into some pretty good experiences.

I also believe they're ahead of the game with their room scale tech, simply because of chaperone and the way it's implemented. I think it will be significantly safer, as well as potentially giving the system more information about how to configure the space when the game is launched, which should translate into better experiences as well. Personally, I don't expect us to see many full room-scale experiences for quite a while, because of exactly the issues you listed. I'm seeing a lot of "small movement within a 2 foot square" type experiences in upcoming games (hover junkers, space pirates, etc). I also believe we won't see a ton of room-scale experiences because you're effectively cutting your (already ridiculously small) audience in half, since oculus can't do it.

When I tested it, the ocean demo where the whale swims up at life size scale was absolutely staggering, and the Portal Demo where glaDOS abuses you was excellent (and she seemed SO BIG in your personal space, it was intense).

Really though, I expect some rough stuff ahead. If I wasn't playing Elite Dangerous, even though the tech is groundbreaking I think I would wait. I'm glad google is releasing tiltbrush at launch for the vive as well (which will definitely make use of the maximum amount of space you have available), but I'm not going in with any delusions about a new title monthly to play on the thing. I'm also hoping there will be some "legacy compatibility" apps like they've made for oculus, where you get nice immersion but are still basically getting your own private 100" theater to play or watch films on (vrdesktop, for example).


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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:44 pm 
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This is pretty intriguing:

Quote:
There is no aiming correction in The Brookhaven Experiment, an upcoming survival game for the HTC Vive. You either know how to shoot, or you don't.

And every missed shot is a real problem; the game is over once you run out of bullets.

"It's actually been pretty funny to hear reactions from people who've played it at shows," Jeremy Chapman of Phosphor Games told Polygon. "One person will tell us it's way too easy while they're getting head shots on every shot. Then next person will tell us it's way too hard after they die 30 seconds in."

The reality is that the game's mechanics aren't tuned to any difficulty, outside of the number and intensity of enemies. If you know how to shoot already, however? It's going to be easier. Past experience with games doesn't matter. Knowledge of how to use a real gun is what helps you, although the lack of recoil outside of the haptics of the Vive controller certainly makes recovering from each shot a bit easier.

"My first response to everyone is to ask 'have you ever fired a real pistol?' Generally the people who have are the ones that do better, as they know pistols lose accuracy pretty quickly as the range increases," Chapman continued. "Shooting with motion controllers is a totally different animal than using a gamepad or keyboard and mouse, and over time people adjust and get better at using them."


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This creates an interesting truth to the game that shooters with canned animations and aim-assistance lack. When you do poorly you have no excuse. But when you do well? During one session I missed a shot, and blew through the rest of my clip on a particularly large monster who soaked a number of bullets. I reloaded, only to hear the sounds of a monster behind me. I spun around, jumping backwards as I realized it was right in my face. Without thinking my hand with the gun flew up and I pulled the trigger at almost no range; its head exploded. I felt like I was in an action movie ... but it also took a few moments before my heart slowed down.


Full article here: http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/2/26/11113162/the-brookhaven-experiment-phosphor-games


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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:26 am 
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Got my order in for Vive, the wait for april will be LONG.

Also, thought this list might be of interest, it looks like a lot of games are targeting relatively small room-scale experiences at this point:
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2m x 1.5m (6.5' x 4.9') is the recommended minimum for roomscale and it seems like most roomscale-only games are targeting it, like these ones:
Space Pirate Trainer - 2m x 1.5m (6.5' x 4.9')
Sluggy's Fruit Emporium - 2m x 1.5m (6.5' x 4.9')
Fantastic Contraption - 2m x 1.5m (6.5' x 4.9')
A Legend of Luca - 2m x 1.5m (6.5' x 4.9')
Job Simulator - 2m x 1.5m (6.5' x 4.9')
Metaverse Construction Kit - 2m x 1.5m (6.5' x 4.9')
Here are a few games that require more space:
Budget Cuts - 2m x 2m (6.5' x 6.5')
Water Bears VR - 3m x 3m (9.8' x 9.8')
Irrational Exuberance - 2m x 2m (6.5' x 6.5')
A Chair in a Room : Greenwater - 2.5m x 2.5m (8.2' x 8.2')


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:31 am 
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Nice, DR. That's interesting info, seeing the target spaces.

I'll be watching for reviews and impressions with interest; the 2x1.5m space is much smaller than I would have assumed would offer much immersive benefit. It'll be interesting to see how games leverage that to create gameplay and an immersive experience, and how effective it is vs. strictly standing experiences.

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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:51 am 
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I've only watched around the first 10 min of this video, but it's done a better job of showing the external camera and tracking of the controllers than anything else I've seen.



Linked at the camera function, go back a few min to watch him flip the controllers in the air and manage to catch them without leaving VR.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:03 pm 
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http://www.stuff.tv/news/oculus-founder ... +awareness

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:31 am 
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Sony announced an October release for Playstation VR with a $399 (PS4, camera, and move controllers sold separately) pricetag.

They're claiming 50 Playstation VR titles by the end of the year.

Oculus has announced it's 30-title launch lineup, along with prices. Touch titles are being shown at GDC, but I haven't seen more in-depth information about their release, yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:47 am 
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I'm only glad that's dropping because it will drive development of more crossplatform titles. With the camera and move controllers, it's ~550. Hopefully it's good enough that it doesn't kill VR in it's first gen.


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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:11 am 
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So has anyone else here actually tried any of the headgear? Oculus, Vive, GearVR? Apparently, the sensation is incredibly hard to communicate. They're experiencing an issue with a lot of people having apathy simply because videos/etc don't do the experience justice at all. In addition to that, generally the games don't look as detailed or rich. There's apparently a technical issue for that, in reading some interviews with devs, their initial products were a lot more detailed and rich, but didn't communicate nearly as well in VR, and honestly kind of overwhelmed the testers. The intensity level is so much higher that turning down the data is actually better for the user at this point.

I'm really excited to get my hands on the valve lab, apparently it's 12 or so demos that showcase a bunch of different types of interaction, the buzz is good.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:36 am 
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I've owned a Rift DK2 for over a year, now.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:39 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I've owned a Rift DK2 for over a year, now.


Do you use it often? Or ever? Now that the novelty is gone, is there a specific game you play on it that has made it into rotation?

Also, have you tried vrdesktop or any of the other similar programs to do non-gaming things on it? Watch movies?

I'm curious if it'll be specifically a one-trick pony in my household.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:17 am 
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I went through a couple weeks where I was downloading demos and early access projects and such to use it with. This was around the release of the .8 version of the SDK, and it really showed how much they were struggling to present a consistent experience with the rapid development of features they were doing.

They had no launcher application at the time, so actually using the thing was a mess of switching between extended desktop mode (a true blight on the face of, well, everything it touched, good riddance) and whatever the independent display mode was called.

The DK2 is very much a tinkerer's toy, not a consumer product, and it showed, is my point. There were a few things that rose above that to really showcase the strengths of VR, so I had no reservations about pre-ordering the CV1. But the hassle involved and constant updating of drivers and whatnot during that rapid development period really didn't warrant extended use for me.

I'm looking forward to seeing finished projects on the actual consumer product. Because a year ago, people were trying to figure out how to present UI information without running afoul of the mess the modest screen door effect of the DK2 makes of text, launching games was a bunch of squinting, winking (extended desktop mode in Windows didn't recognize that the display was split between eyes), and taking the headset off and on. Hacking support into existing games was even worse, as it invariably required multiple third party drivers and hacks, complexifying setup even more.

Just watching development through news sites with that experience as a baseline perspective, though, both Valve and Oculus are making smart choices that will invariably help. Setting Steam up as a VR launch environment, and Oculus' own walled garden (as much as I hate the principle of the thing) should deliver much better user experiences. Game developers who are getting the chance to put thought into things are simplifying or eliminating UI elements in favor of seeking out more intuitive interactions with the game world and diagetic solutions.

So, the DK2 was a novelty, which I knew going into it. Unless you're deeply invested in keeping up with the moving target that is VR development (like a developer), it wasn't really designed for you. It was a novelty that confirmed that there are folks out there that are on the right track, and as a shared point of reference from which I can establish a baseline with the VR journalists out there, I found it valuable to inform my purchasing this Spring and my ability to follow the coverage.

I can very much confirm to you that the experience of using a headset product is not one that can be conveyed well via text, images, or video; it's a singular experience that you either have to take on faith when somebody tries to communicate its sense of wonder and tangibility holistically, or experience for yourself to establish that baseline level of understanding with the author.

The experience is so much more complex and subtly layered than simply going down to your local Cinemaplex and watching a 3d movie, but the metaphor of trying to pitch a 3d movie via TV or static image advertisements in 2d media is probably pretty good.

Image

Just as graphic designers were trying to figure out creative ways to do this five to ten years ago to sell you a 3d TV, now VR writers are trying to describe the experience with words like "presence" and "immersion" -- words that are perfectly adequate and that I like for communicating well among people who have a reference point, but trying to convey that reference point to somebody who hasn't experienced it is probably pretty dubious even with colorful descriptions of the sensation of presence.

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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:16 pm 
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So it sounds like you're pre-ordering the oculus even though you don't like the walled-garden structure they're setting up, any reason why you didn't jump ship and get the Vive for full roomscale and open infrastructure instead?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:49 pm 
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Darkroland wrote:
So it sounds like you're pre-ordering the oculus even though you don't like the walled-garden structure they're setting up, any reason why you didn't jump ship and get the Vive for full roomscale and open infrastructure instead?

I don't have an environment that I'd get a good room-scale experience out of without some major redecorating, and my expectation is that the bulk of VR gaming in the near future will settle into seated experiences, much the way the Wii library eventually shifted to feature more Marios, MarioKarts, Mario Makers, controller-friendly Zelda and Metroid titles, etc. instead of going all Sports and Rayman Raving Rabbids, all the time.

I also think that the Touch is likely to be more compelling hardware than Vive's wands, and when the large-scale room-scale experience (vs. a small-area standing or seated experience) isn't on the table, the Rift is going to be more comfortable for extended play sessions.

Finally, it's pretty likely that Valve will have few actual exclusives, and their developers (including Valve itself, I think) will be pretty willing to port to the Rift once the Touch controllers release. As such, the Rift is likely to have access to two content delivery platforms, which paradoxically mitigates my distaste at fragmenting the market despite being one of the active participants in making that a concern.

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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:40 pm 
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That's very interesting to me, because personally the only experiences i've seen that would push me to drop the significant upfront cost of the unit are the room scale. I wasn't planning to purchase one at launch, but then I was able to demo the vive room scale on one of their university tours and it converted me. I'm also conscious of the fact that there may not be as many of those type of experiences for the oculus, since the eventual touch controllers are an optional component. I guess the upside is if the market does standardize on seated experiences, at least the Vive can do that too.

I can understand being ok with having access to the walled garden, but I'm pretty hopeful not many devs go exclusive. I'd like to think that they wouldn't cut tthemselves off from part of their already small early adopter market, but I also know how big a check Facebook can write to cut off consumers, so that's defintely a concern.

Are you concerned at all about the latency/tracking issues being reported with the rift press events, or do you think they'll get it straightened out for launch?


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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:54 pm 
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Darkroland wrote:
Are you concerned at all about the latency/tracking issues being reported with the rift press events, or do you think they'll get it straightened out for launch?

I haven't seen anybody raising big complaints with the most recent round or two of hardware. It was my impression that some of the glitches reported by early Touch experiences are pretty well sorted, and the DK2 is already pretty solid, response-wise, unless the software is cocking it up on a grand scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Oculus Rift
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:58 pm 
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Ah, this was the most recenr article that gave me that impression:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/vertigo-lives-oculus-rift-preview-event-suffers-from-vr-tracking-woes/


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