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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 10:48 am 
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This Atlantic article is, by far, one of the most interesting articles I've read regarding the views and concerns that motivate at least some of the support for Trump. The focus on pushing back against PC culture certainly echoed a lot of what DE and other Trump voters I've spoken to have to say on the subject. It's framed around a series of email exchanges the author had with a young Trump supporter, so it's hard to excerpt effectively, but I've grabbed some of the highlights below. Highly recommend folks read the whole thing if they're interested though.

Introductory exchange:

For several days, I’ve been corresponding with a 22-year-old Donald Trump supporter. He is white, has a bachelor’s degree, and earns $50,000 to $60,000 per year. He lives near San Francisco. “I recently became engaged to my Asian fiancée who is making roughly 3 times what I make, and I am completely supportive of her and proud she is doing so well,” he wrote. “We’ve both benefited a lot from globalization. We are young, urban, and have a happy future planned. We seem molded to be perfect young Hillary supporters,” he observed, “but we're not. In 2016, we're both going for Trump.”

Trump Voter: We are young, urban, and have a happy future planned. We seem molded to be perfect young Hillary supporters. But we're not. Both of us voted Libertarian in 2012, and ideologically we remain so. But in 2016? We're both going for Trump. For me personally, it's resistance against what San Francisco has been, and what I see the country becoming, in the form of ultra-PC culture. That’s where it's almost impossible to have polite or constructive political discussion. Disagreement gets you labeled fascist, racist, bigoted, etc. It can provoke a reaction so intense that you’re suddenly an unperson to an acquaintance or friend. There is no saying “Hey, I disagree with you,” it's just instant shunning. Say things online, and they'll try to find out who you are and potentially even get you fired for it. Being anti-PC is not about saying “I want you to agree with me on these issues.” It's about saying, “Hey, I want to have a discussion and not get shouted down because I don't agree with what is considered to be politically correct."

...I feel like I have to hide my beliefs. I cannot say openly that I identify with Republicans, lest I see friendships and potential professional connections disappear with those words. When I see Hillary Clinton, I see the world becoming less and less tolerant of right-leaning views.When I see Facebook censoring conservative outlets and then see The Atlantic defending the practice, that worries me. When I see the fear that reddit users have about admins banning subreddits because of political beliefs, that worries me....This is a war over how dialogue in America will be shaped. If Hillary wins, we're going to see a further tightening of PC culture. But if Trump wins? If Trump wins, we will have a president that overwhelmingly rejects PC rhetoric. Even better, we will show that more than half the country rejects this insane PC regime. If Trump wins, I will personally feel a major burden relieved, and I will feel much more comfortable stating my more right-wing views without fearing total ostracism and shame. Because of this, no matter what Trump says or does, I will keep supporting him.

Conor Friedersdorf:Why do you think Trump being elected would have a salutary effect on political correctness? It isn’t as if the behavior of illiberal college students or workmates...depends on who is in the White House. In fact, President Obama has repeatedly criticized political correctness. Through what mechanism would change come if Trump is elected? And for context, what are those “more right-wing views” you feel unable to share openly?

Trump Voter: Having Trump in the White House would both give me more confidence to speak my own opinion and more of a shield from instantly being dismissed as a racist/xenophobe/Nazi (all three things I have been called personally). Under President Obama, our national dialogue has steadily moved towards political correctness (despite his denunciations), but with President Trump, I think our national dialogue will likely move away from being blanketly PC. Even though, as you pointed out, Obama has criticized PC speech, he doesn't exactly engage in un-PC speech like Trump does. I don't expect a President Trump to instantly convert people, but when you have someone in the Oval Office giving decidedly un-PC speeches and announcements, I think that would change the discourse, don't you?

...For context, my right wing views include:
  • Lower taxes for all, and with it a reduction of various benefits.
  • Reduction or an end to affirmative action in favor of a pure merit-based system.
  • Support for law and order, and an intense dislike of disruptive protests.
  • A temporary ban on Muslim immigration.
  • In favor of "melting pot" culture instead of multiculturalism.
  • Isolationist war policy and anti-NATO, in favor of improving relations with Russia.

For further context, I have left-wing views that precluded Rubio and Cruz from getting my vote:
  • Pro access to birth control
  • Pro universal healthcare (despite the taxes this requires, it’s the only realistic way to combat rising prices)
  • Pro LGBT rights
  • I favor the absolute separation of church and state. (I'm a Christian who believes very strongly that my religion should not be pushed onto public policy.)

One thing I fear is that if Trump loses, it may be seen as the reverse of what I just said: that America rejected a non-PC candidate (especially if he loses overwhelmingly). Clinton's victory could be seen as a further vindication for the PC crowd that there is no tolerance for Trump's type of views, and I fear it will hit other right-wing views.

On the Trump Voter's mixture of libertarianism and authoritarianism:

Quote:
Friedersdorf: I'm intrigued that you voted libertarian in 2012, would sign up for a Gary Johnson presidency in 2016 if you thought it was a realistic electoral possibility, but also describe yourself as "slightly more authoritarian than the average person." Can you tell me more about your respective thoughts on libertarianism and authoritarianism?

Trump Voter: I have supported the Libertarian party specifically for the policies (military non-intervention, ending war on drugs, low taxes, etc.), and the fact that, if successful, it would significantly undermine the Democrat-Republican duopoly. That said, I do not identify with the libertarian preference for a weak federal government. My ideal government would be strong enough to take on massive projects (such as the illegal immigration question) only when necessary, would prevent mass exploitation by the elites ( conservationist efforts to protect the environment, for example,) but would try not to regulate people's personal and economic lives. The authoritarian aspect comes from the fact that I think we have a lot of issues that need to be fixed. An authoritarian president needs to be able to initiate major policies that may go against party and elite orthodoxies, and I don't want some senator speaking for hours to prevent needed policies. If something needs to be done, it cannot be stalled by senators whose only interest is serving the elites.

After a long exchange about illegal immigration and the Trump Voter's support for mass deportation:

Quote:
Friedersdorf:Given your income and where you live, it seems unlikely that illegal immigration has harmed you personally in any way, and it is probable that you've benefitted from it. What explains the relative importance that you give it relative to other issues?

Trump Voter: I probably have benefitted from illegal immigration more than I have been harmed, true. Even legal immigration has benefits for me; my fiancee is a second-generation immigrant (her parents came here legally). I think most of my opposition comes from what I feel is a loss of the patriotic American identity and the advancement of multiculturalism and political correctness....One issue I have is that many of these illegal immigrants will go over to the Democratic Party. I feel that the Democrats have become a party that I am almost completely opposed to and I have no desire to give them any further political power.

I also fear that, as increased automation comes to the workplace, we are going to see fewer and fewer job opportunities for low-skill workers. We could be in a position where either illegal immigrants will need heavy government assistance, OR current Americans will lose jobs and see the few remaining ones (such as in retail, services, sanitation, etc.) taken by illegal immigrants, so they would need heavy government assistance. Long term, illegal immigrants will have children who will compete against my children for university spots and job opportunities. It's admittedly very selfish, but I do want to ensure the greatest advantages I can give them.

I don't know how to describe it, exactly, but I feel in a lot of ways that my identity as a white man is shamed. I am in zero ways a white nationalist or supremacist, and I consider myself a feminist. I will likely sacrifice my career goals, either with fewer hours or relocation as needed, so that my fiancee can pursue her ambitions and goals. But I do not want to be shamed or held back or attacked for just being what I am.

Closing comments from Friedersdorf after the dialogue ends:

Quote:
My correspondent has come to believe that political correctness is transforming American culture in a way that puts his interests at odds with activists who are pursuing social justice and Hispanic immigrants who might benefit from affirmative action. His perception of these changes is causing him to engage in zero-sum thinking. If identity-based tribalism is America’s lot, he intends to vote his group interests, whereas he was previously inclined toward a more individualist ethic. That shift alarms me.

Neither the pursuit of social justice nor immigration policy nor relations among people of different ethnicities are inherently zero sum in nature. Quite the contrary, if sound policies and social norms are in place. If there is an uptick in white people shifting from a liberal mindset to a tribal mindset, something has gone very wrong. What?

The correspondent’s words track concerns I’ve aired before. In The Federalist, David Marcus argues that anti-white rhetoric is fueling white nationalism. I’ve previously warned that “encouraging a focus on white identity is a dangerous approach for a country in which white supremacy has been a toxic force,” an admonition that applies to the right and left in different ways. And on the subject of “political correctness,” I’ve posited that citizens who oppose Trumpism should “take a careful look at everything that falls under the rubric of political correctness; study the real harm done by its excesses; identify the many parts that are worth defending; and persuade more Americans to adopt those norms voluntarily, for substantive reasons, not under duress of social shaming or other coercion.”

Today’s correspondent is just one voter. Future opinion polls will say much more about how typical Trump supporters relate to political correctness and white identity. If it turns out that there are a significant number of people who are reacting to social-justice shaming and rhetorical anti-whiteness by shifting from supporting campaigns like Gary Johnson 2012 to campaigns like Donald Trump 2016, what then?


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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 2:52 pm 
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I have said before that left wing advocates are entirely responsible for the success of Donald Trump. I previously used the term liberals, but they are anything but. The classical liberal is what we refer to today as a libertarian. The Democratic Party base of today are socialist, authoritarian bigots. They are not liberals, and they should not be referred to as liberals. Democrats are the party of institutionalized racism. This has remained unchanged from the days of blockades on free states entering the Union until a slave state could be admitted. The only thing that has changed is the skin color they have chosen to target.

Democrats are the National Socialist party of the United States, and like the other Nationalsozialistische parties that arose in the previous century, their aim is to silence dissent by punishing those who speak out against the Party.

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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 5:03 pm 
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COROLINTH FOR PRESIDENT!!


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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:33 pm 
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Have to wait until 2020. I'm only 34.

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PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:58 pm 
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Best start fundraising now; I think the "troll your way to the nomination" strategy has already been burned.

RD, I'm still giving this article some thought, back to you soon.

I will say, however, it was a bit striking to me how much the young man he interviewed resembles a guy I work with - white, married to an Asian woman, makes around $50,000, wife makes significantly more, bachelor's degree, which he got in California.

The big difference is that the guy I work with retired from the Marine Corps; he's in his mid-40s. Much like Coro, he falls into the "Trump - not the President we need, but the President we deserve" camp (I feel it's more of a "Trump - we need and deserve what we're getting, and not for the reasons you think.")

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 10:33 am 
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RD - this is a pretty good article, in the sense that it presents something to be discussed in a tone that promotes engagement - rather surprising for The Atlantic which tends to be fair-minded, if left-leaning on most issues, but tends to revert into bastion-defense mode of liberal orthodoxy on race and class and get the vapors over Donald Trump (to be fair, The National Review is also still busy sucking its thumb and sulking over Trump's presumptive nomination. There is more than enough butthurt for the media on both sides of the issue).

First, the author did a good job in his selection of a person to interview, since this individual will not be easily dismissed as just some bigoted redneck by the typical Atlantic reader. I am not entirely certain what goal he's trying to accomplish with the article; if he is trying to re-assure the left that yes, Trump supporters really are white tribalists or something, or if he is very cautiously trying to warn about PC excesses without either giving up his own, less intense commitment to identity politics. He also might be trying to wright a true caution, but is afraid that he'll be dismissed at best and fired at worst if he does not appropriately camouflage his cautions.

I don't think it's necessary to discuss most of the article since the young man's views are what they are; he is just one voter (as the writer points out) and he's already done a good job of speaking for himself.

However, the comments of the author at the beginning and the end, framing and summarizing the article bear some examination:

Quote:
Last week, I wrote an article asking why Trump supporters aren’t bothered that their candidate called Clinton a shameful abuser of women who may well be a rapist. After all, Trump used to insist that Clinton was a victim of unfair treatment during his sex scandals. Either Trump spent years defending a man that he believed to be a sexual predator, even welcoming him as a guest at his wedding, or Trump is now cynically exploiting a rape allegation that he believes to be false.


He goes on to discuss why the young man has been willing to overlook this point - not deny it, but overlook it.

First, I must say there's some truly amazing irony in complaining about anyone's cynicism whilst running against Hillary Clinton; a woman whose core principle is whatever it needs to be at any given moment. If he were running against Sanders, cynical political tactics might carry some weight as a point of contention, but if he were he then would obviously not be bringing up Bill Clinton's past behavior.

Second, if Trump is cynically exploiting a charge he believes is false*, Hillary has no one to blame but herself. She stated in this campaign, in no uncertain terms, that we should always believe an accuser. This, however, is a standard where her behavior has amounted to "unless of course they're accusing my husband". Trump is very clearly simply taking up the gauntlet; his talk about Bill Clinton amounts to "Ok fine, have it your way. Believe all accusers. Then obviously I was wrong in defending your husband, and his accusers must be telling the truth, right? RIGHT???"

The author overlooks this in his other, very short article which is so short that it conveys a tone of "I need to get this bit about cynicism out there quick and then shut up before anyone spots the holes." This causes me to call into question just how deep his interest really is in understanding Trump voters, because it goes right to the heart of the objections both to Clinton herself and the PC-addiction of the left: Set a standard of behavior, then, when that standard of behavior is applied to you, start crying foul and obscure the double standard that was the goal all along. In the case of the SJW/PC portion of the left (and the less extreme forms in the less extreme left) this is unconscious and unorganized, but in Hillary's case it's an active and transparent strategy that gets excused or distracted from rather than denied.

Hillary exacerbates this with comments about "Dealing with men getting 'off the reservation'" and the only note it gets is that it's offensive to Native Americans. That comment in the context of the aforementioned bringing up of Bill's past carries an undertone of "You just remember, I'm a woman so I get to set the boundaries. Any time I feel like you're getting too much of an advantage I can just whip out that card and play it, Donald, and don't you forget it".

This goes ignored by the author in both articles, and while understandable in the case of the article you linked, it's something that very much reflects the unwritten rules of national conversation that Trump supporters are fed up with. There are counterpoints to much of this, but for Trump supporters there's no point in event entertaining them since experience teaches that the left wants to jump straight to the counterpoints in order to avoid defending the double standards that makes those counterpoints necessary in the first place.

Quote:
My correspondent has come to believe that political correctness is transforming American culture in a way that puts his interests at odds with activists who are pursuing social justice and Hispanic immigrants who might benefit from affirmative action. His perception of these changes is causing him to engage in zero-sum thinking. If identity-based tribalism is America’s lot, he intends to vote his group interests, whereas he was previously inclined toward a more individualist ethic.

That shift alarms me.

Neither the pursuit of social justice nor immigration policy nor relations among people of different ethnicities are inherently zero sum in nature. Quite the contrary, if sound policies and social norms are in place. If there is an uptick in white people shifting from a liberal mindset to a tribal mindset, something has gone very wrong.

What?

The correspondent’s words track concerns I’ve aired before.


I appreciate the tone of this portion (it's unconfrontational) and her correctly identifies that something, indeed, has gone very wrong.

However, there is a sense as well that his listening to his interviewee was quite selective. Disregarding the silliness of claiming a white man with an Asian fiancee is falling into white-identity zero-sum thinking, there is the fact that his fiancee despite initial trepidation about Trump decided to support him herself. The interviewee puts forth a number of politicial and economic concerns but the author attempts to shoehorn them back into an exclusively racial context in his summary.

The author seems unwilling, as well, to confront the fact that this zero-sum thinking is what the left actively promotes. Any time "appealing to white voters" is mentioned, it is said with the implicit assumption that doing so inherently and automatically runs counter to the interests of everyone else, right before we're told that it's a losing strategy because there aren't enough white men (the attempt to portray women as automatically part of the minority umbrella is invariably slid in there somewhere). The economic concerns of white voters are invariably recast in terms fo the identity politics the left desires. The immigration issue is the primary example of this - it's portrayed as white people disliking darker-skinned Spanish-speaking people** when in fact its competition for jobs and public resources. If we had hundreds of thousands of Norwegians pouring in, these people would not likely be any more accepting of it just because more of them are blonde.

Furthermore, this zero-sum thinking is only criticized when its white people (or men) engaging in it***; it's portrayed sympathetically if it's a minority or a woman. Social justice has been repeatedly portrayed as the need to take whites and males down a peg, and no number of pegs is ever enough. I'm reminded of the BLM activist on CNN loudly telling white people "You have ta sacrifica y'all selves!" and no one blinking an eye at this blatant admission that among activist blacks, at least, the desire is white grovelling in submission****. It may be that this particular author is the sole voice on the left cautioning against zero-sum reasoning, but it seems more likely that his concern with this, assuming it's genuine is more a matter of him rather uncomfortably beginning to realize what a problem PC/SJW thinking has really become and either being unwilling to fully confront it yet, or else afraid of consequences if he does so.

Quote:
In The Federalist, David Marcus argues that anti-white rhetoric is fueling white nationalism. I’ve previously warned that “encouraging a focus on white identity is a dangerous approach for a country in which white supremacy has been a toxic force,” an admonition that applies to the right and left in different ways. And on the subject of “political correctness,” I’ve posited that citizens who oppose Trumpism should “take a careful look at everything that falls under the rubric of political correctness; study the real harm done by its excesses; identify the many parts that are worth defending; and persuade more Americans to adopt those norms voluntarily, for substantive reasons, not under duress of social shaming or other coercion.”

Today’s correspondent is just one voter. Future opinion polls will say much more about how typical Trump supporters relate to political correctness and white identity. If it turns out that there are a significant number of people who are reacting to social-justice shaming and rhetorical anti-whiteness by shifting from supporting campaigns like Gary Johnson 2012 to campaigns like Donald Trump 2016, what then?


This section comes across as the author being exceedingly careful not to say anything that might raise the defenses of the likely Atlantic readership by being very careful to re-affirm that yes, the right engages in white identity politics too, and that's bad. The implication, which the author is trying to avoid calling attention to, is that minority (and gender) -based identity politics is perfectly ok. It is not just PC that drives this belief; it is the double standard of identity politics especially in the recent climate of protests, safe spaces, triggering, and the prominent acknowledgement that around 40% of millennials think bans on speech "offensive to minorities" is ok - the specter of Euro-style "hate speech" laws is rapidly rising. Of late, we've seen Attorneys General trying to shoehorn the tobacco company model into suing energy companies as well and people are correct to fear that the left is well on its way to trying to outlaw opposing ideas.

As for applying to the right in different ways, he would do well to realize that the vast majority of "white identity politics" on the right has only incidental correspondence to race, and that "white nationalism" is much much more rare than the left likes to think. Put succinctly, white nationalism does not mean either "white people who are also nationalists" nor "refusing to excuse people from obeying the law because they're not white and have a sob story", or a number of other things that really involve opposition to double standards that favor minorities.

His last sentence reveals his unwillingness to address the depths of the problem - there is very little in the way of political correctness that can be salvaged at this point; the parts that are worth salvaging already ARE norms from the first, early 1990s round of PC. The national conversation issue is not a problem of the left needing to curb its excesses, it's a matter of the left needing to understand that it cannot have a monopoly on dictating what is acceptable to discuss and how it is acceptable to discuss it, minority "leaders" included.

I cannot really tell if this author is lightening his message for fear that a real castigation of the left will end in him being dismissed (either his views, or in terms of his continued employment) or if he's just not completely come to grips with the fact that these excesses are a major driver of Donald Trump being nominated for President. I applaud his attempt to take a fair, non-judgemental tone with his interviewee, but the left has been very good at lecturing the right on how the right needs to denounce its "racist" or "extremist" elements, which the left then takes it upon itself to designate. A lot more articles like this are going to be needed, especially since I predict that if Trump loses or at the end of his Presidency the identity machine will be back in full force.




*I am not attempting to discuss whether it IS false; while the accusations against Clinton are more credible than some of the hilarious attempts to garner publicity we've seen with the mattress chick and UVA I still give them at most a 50% chance of being true in terms for the question of whether a sexual assault was committed.

**The belief that serious efforts to deport illegals or enforce immigration laws themselves rely on an alarming stereotype of Hispanic people as "brown people" that are indistinguishable from each other, often disguised with sarcastic references to the views whites supposedly hold towards "brown people." It also rests on the presumption that enforcement would revolve around simply rounding up anyone that "looked Hispanic". This is an absurd proposition - with 12 million people to get rid of, a more counterproductive method is hard to imagine. Furthermore, a huge portion of the immigration enforcement apparatus itself is Hispanic and isn't likely to want to round up their own families.

The fact is that Hispanic people from different backgrounds can be told apart based on their behaviors and speech patterns- it is pretty easy for a Hispanic person, or a properly trained immigration officer, to detect an illegal based on behavior and speech whether they're Hispanic or not, for much the same reason that it's easy for us to tell apart someone from Alabama, someone from Boston, and a Canadian. If those three people arrived in Japan, a trained Japanese immigration official could probably tell them apart even without examining their documents, but an average Japanese person with little English skill might find themselves hard-pressed. Trying to pretend that Puerto Ricans will simply get rounded up by racist white immigration agents (the aforementioned Hipanic agent notwithstanding) makes no more sense than claiming a Bostonian and an Alabaman are indistinguishable and really reflects a projection of the left's amalgamation of everyone into unified identity groups, and then projecting that amalgamation onto the right along with what it imagines to be the view of the right or anyone enforcing laws it doesn't happen to like very much.

***Zero-sum thinking is part and parcel of feminist belief. The discussions surrounding rape are a perfect example, with any discredited or even unsubstantiated rape claim treated as some sort of loss for victims and women, and a win for "rape culture", a laughable concept if it weren't so dangerous. In point of fact, the defense of claims like the UVA incident and then the huffy, blustering concern about how it will be "bad for victims" that someone had the gall to bring facts into it simply make the advocates look both foolish and fanatical and increase suspicion of victims. Recently, whining about how many women's sports teams are coached by men is another example. If a men's group tries to form on a campus, it's denounced as some sort of loss to women, and if it is allowed to form it's portrayed as only acceptable if the women's studies/women's group is allowed to police what goes on there. It is not an accident that the author of the article studiously avoids addressing the gender aspects of a Trump presidency; an examination of how feminism is pushing men into all sorts of things like MRA, MGTOW, (both of which at the very least worthy of some scrutiny, although not from the left or from feminists) and voting for Trump would be sticking his hand into a tree shredder of screaming lunatics.

****BLM, and the young, relatively uneducated people that form most of it, are rather blatantly interested in white submission more than anything else, at least to Black dominance of racial dialogue and to re-working of social systems to grant equality of outcome based on race, or even preferable outcomes to blacks - not just preferential treatment on the input side. As the quote reveals (it was in a CNN interview with the girl that interrupted Bernie Sander's rally last year and got a lot of attention) about "sacrificing y'all selves" that quality or preferential outcome can come from forcing white people to give up anything black activists and black liberation theology preachers deem "white privilege". These people, despite being prevalent in colleges are not there to learn, do not beleive they ahve anything to learn (they think the view they picked up in a childhood filled with black victimology is unassailable) and seem to think they're there for the purpose of teaching everyone else.

Quote:
The students Heller interviewed seem to think they're not at college to be educated: they are at college to educate everyone else. As Jasmine Adams, a member of the black student union, put it:

“We’re asking to be reflected in our education,” Adams cuts in. “I literally am so tired of learning about Marx, when he did not include race in his discussion of the market!” She shrugs incredulously. “As a person who plans on returning to my community, I don’t want to assimilate into middle-class values. I’m going home, back to the ’hood of Chicago, to be exactly who I was before I came to Oberlin.”

While I share Adam's view that Marx is over-taught in college, I question her desire to leave college as a completely unchanged human being. You should change who you are, and what you think, in college. It's a transformative experience. That's the entire point. It's what you're paying for.


The last point is salient. Young people are being fed the idea they have nothing to learn, in fields of study that serve no purpose other than pandering to their own sense of victimhood - and they are paying considerable sums to obtain it.

It really causes one to question the sincerity of these institutions commitment to social justice when they want to charge tens of thousands of dollars teaching young people to make public caricatures of themselves and then to continue feeling victimized by "the system" when their useless degree in absolutely nothing results in them being 30 and still having trouble moving past customer service jobs. No doubt a Master's Degree (easily funded with more student loans) is the fix!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:16 am 
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply, DE. I'll try to respond in kind after work tonight.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:18 pm 
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Trump is what happens when reasonable people have stopped being reasonable because it isn't accomplishing anything and the unreasonable actions and positions they see everywhere else are rewarded.

Reasonable: Let everyone speak their positions and you can speak against them. The best position will win in the long run. Be punished by losing your job, being vilified in the media.
Unreasonable: Insult everyone you disagree with, call them racist, drown them out. Be rewarded by press and university censoring others proactively on your behalf.

Reasonable: Illegal immigrants, their first act being a violation of US law should not have an easier time remaining in this nation than those on the long, slow, and expensive track to come here legally, a track that must be made shorter, faster, and less expensive.
Unreasonable: Push for path to citizenship, drivers license, voting, full government funding, call everyone who disagrees racist especially if they haven't mentioned anything about race.

After a few decades you just say '**** it. Burn it all down as long as those assholes burn first.' - and you get Trump.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:30 am 
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Trump is what happens when reasonable people have stopped being reasonable because it isn't accomplishing anything and the unreasonable actions and positions they see everywhere else are rewarded.


This may be the most intelligent thing you've ever said.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:57 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Quote:
Trump is what happens when reasonable people have stopped being reasonable because it isn't accomplishing anything and the unreasonable actions and positions they see everywhere else are rewarded.


This may be the most intelligent thing you've ever said.



In politics the most important thing to be able to do is to be able to understand popular political sentiment and to know why it is what it is. It's how you make people win, or lose, and that is how you get paid (next time).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:46 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Best start fundraising now; I think the "troll your way to the nomination" strategy has already been burned.

RD, I'm still giving this article some thought, back to you soon.

I will say, however, it was a bit striking to me how much the young man he interviewed resembles a guy I work with - white, married to an Asian woman, makes around $50,000, wife makes significantly more, bachelor's degree, which he got in California.

The big difference is that the guy I work with retired from the Marine Corps; he's in his mid-40s. Much like Coro, he falls into the "Trump - not the President we need, but the President we deserve" camp (I feel it's more of a "Trump - we need and deserve what we're getting, and not for the reasons you think.")

Lol, I know my own "support" of Trump comes from a much darker place, drowning in schadenfreude.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:29 pm 
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I wonder if any of the left are understand about 25% of his support are doing it just because he gives the PC people freak outs.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:57 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
I wonder if any of the left are understand about 25% of his support are doing it just because he gives the PC people freak outs.


It's convenient for the Left to not understand that if you give 19-year-olds clues that something gives you the vapors, they'll do precisely that just to give you the vapors. It's much more politically convenient to pretend all the "racism" and "misogyny" is 100% sincere.

The really amusing part is that it's heavily 19-year-olds on the Left getting the vapors, even though the intent of most of their own protests is to do precisely the same thing to the Right. It's just that the protests of the Left come across as a bunch of church camp kids getting all upset about morality, only leftist 19-year-olds aren't as good at taking a shower as those at church camp.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:05 pm 
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The Left is united in how much they hate The Right. Even though Trump actually demolishes the neo-con and Christian right sections of the R party. Tribalism has completely taken over US politics.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:27 am 
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From one of my conservative friends.
Quote:
"Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?" - Warrant Officer Ellen Ripley in Aliens, as she learns that people are planning to try to further their own agendas by siding with (and attempting to tame) a horrific monster that is only capable of destruction.

I apologize in advance for a political post, but I continue to be frustrated by this election cycle. When did we decide that unproven innuendo is more meaningful than fact?

It is an objective fact that Hillary Clinton is not a criminal. That word - and words have meaning - is reserved for people who have been convicted of a crime. Despite a massive, decade-spanning effort by political opponents to try to pin something on her, Clinton has not been convicted of a crime. One of the most sacred principles of American jurisprudence is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, but what's a little Constitutional disregard when there's good mudslinging to be had? (Bonus hypocrisy: people who like to say that they love the Constitution, are "strict originalists in the mold of Scalia", and are rabid about the 2nd Amendment are the first people to abandon the Constitution when it gives them a chance to make false, hyperbolic claims about Clinton being a criminal without being proven guilty of any crime.)

Already, I can hear the conspiracy theory engine revving up - "but Whitewater! and Benghazi! and Clinton Foundation pay-to-play! and e-mails!" What do we know about all of those accusations?

Stop - if you're thinking about what you've heard from her detractors, then you're probably already wrong. I didn't ask "what does it look like from afar?" or "what do people suspect?" or "what has a lunatic who doesn't know the difference between correlation and causation at InfoWars fabricated in their latest alt-right fan-fiction?"

Trump likes to say that Hillary is weak, ineffective, and incompetent... yet in the same breath will say that she's a criminal mastermind who has orchestrated grand conspiracies involving thousands of people to cover up her supposed misdeeds. All available evidence supports the idea that covering up conspiracies is incredibly difficult, and only gets more difficult the more people that are involved. Chris Christie, one of the insiders in Donald Trump's campaign (and Donald only picks "good people - the best") couldn't cover up a 6-person conspiracy to shut down a bridge for a little while, and we're supposed to believe Secretary Clinton has led a conspiracy involving literally the entire global news media, thousands of academics, hundreds of current and former politicians of both parties, a global network of financiers and other "shadowy elites", etc. that has run the world in secret for 30 years?

If she's really an evil genius that is guilty of corruption and criminal misdeeds, then that means she is more intelligent and capable than every GOP member and Breitbart contributor who has ever tried to expose her dastardly schemes. If she has easily outmaneuvered the hundreds of thousands of Republican man-hours and millions of Republican dollars spent on opposition research and special prosecutors, then how can she also simultaneously be too stupid to be President (as Rudy Guiliani said) or, as Trump says frequently, how could she be completely outsmarted by other world leaders when it comes to matters of foreign policy, military strategy, and international trade?

That uncomfortable feeling in your head? The one that you get when you try to reconcile two things Trump positions as "facts" when it's impossible for them both to be true? That's called cognitive dissonance. Don't be alarmed - it just shows that the rational thinking part of your brain still works.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 4:25 pm 
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Your "conservative friend" is apparently not aware that "criminal" is a word people commonly use in everyday life to refer to people they strongly believe are committing crimes, even if that person has not yet been caught and convicted. "Sexual Predator" is a term with much stronger explicit connotations as a person who has been positively found guilty of a crime, yet people have used it repeatedly to refer to Trump who has been convicted of no such thing.

As for her conspiracies, competence in one area does not mean competence in all of them - and really, no one has referred to Clinton as a criminal mastermind. In point of fact, she's pretty competent at skirting right up to the edge of the law and into any grey areas - but not terribly competent at avoiding notice when doing so, to the point that even her own advisors have wondered in recently-revealed emails what the hell she was thinking? Probably about the same thing that Chris Stevens was thinking when he found out he'd be at an "embassy" in one of the most unstable countries on earth with no Marine guard force, or practically anyone thought when she was giving Putin a silly red button.

So your "conservative friend" has done an excellent job in hypocritically engaging in linguistic pedantry, and creating a strawman regarding how competent people think Clinton really is. Whoever this guy is, he's in no position to be talking about "cognitive dissonance."

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 6:55 pm 
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Well, by that standard it's also an objective fact that Trump is a criminal. He's just as obviously guilty of sexual assault as Hillary is of graft and corruption.

Wwen wrote:
The Left is united in how much they hate The Right. Even though Trump actually demolishes the neo-con and Christian right sections of the R party. Tribalism has completely taken over US politics.


The evangelical Christian right are Trump's strongest supporters. Yes, that surprises me too.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:48 pm 
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A 'Criminal' is someone who commits a crime. A "Convicted Criminal" is one who has been caught and convicted.

There is a lot more to being convicted of a crime than just being guilty...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:09 pm 
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Midgen wrote:
A 'Criminal' is someone who commits a crime. A "Convicted Criminal" is one who has been caught and convicted.

And a "Smooth Criminal" is one who can defy physics in a snappy suit:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 8:59 pm 
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Or has his shoes nailed to the floor ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:18 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:25 am 
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Ah yes Bill "Gee, maybe we should have thought before referring to the last 5 or 6 Republicans in the same terminology we're using against Donald Trump" Maher.

Time spent listening to Bill Maher is time that can't be recovered. Just remember that.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:44 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Well, by that standard it's also an objective fact that Trump is a criminal. He's just as obviously guilty of sexual assault as Hillary is of graft and corruption.

Wwen wrote:
The Left is united in how much they hate The Right. Even though Trump actually demolishes the neo-con and Christian right sections of the R party. Tribalism has completely taken over US politics.


The evangelical Christian right are Trump's strongest supporters. Yes, that surprises me too.

Last night Sam Harris said something along the lines of "It's ironic that the conservatives just voted in an atheist president." ...LOL

And what sexual assault are you talking about?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:53 pm 
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Wwen wrote:
Last night Sam Harris said something along the lines of "It's ironic that the conservatives just voted in an atheist president." ...LOL


Yup.

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Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:14 pm 
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Blaaaah, why don't the youtube tags work? THANKS OBAMA! :lol:

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