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 Post subject: Re: Trumpcare
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:30 pm 
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Yeah, I saw that, and I also saw this earlier in my search for info and filled in the links after. Interesting seeing the difference...

http://www.aarp.org/health/medicare-ins ... costs.html

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Fidelity Investments, which has been tracking retiree health care costs for more than a decade, estimates that a 65-year-old couple retiring this year will need $240,000 to cover future medical costs. That doesn't include the high cost of long-term care. Nor does it take into account additional costs you may incur if you decide to take — or are forced into — early retirement before your Medicare kicks in.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:37 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
You're not, however, actually leaving anything on the table if you don't take the offered health insurance other than the health insurance. There's no way for you to convert that value into anything else. In fact, even if you do take it you don't actually get that value unless you use enough services to cost at least $10,000.

If there were no limitations on the ability to sign up, you could have it both ways. You could keep your $60 a month and sign up as soon as you had some medical issue that was going to cost more than a trivial amount.

Also, $60 a month seems remarkably low to me even for a single adult, but not so low as to change the nature of the discussion so...


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Which you're going to do because if you don't take it now, you may not be able to get it when you actually do end up needing it. Obviously, some people would take it up front just to keep the hassle to a minimum, but a lot of people would opt out of the coverage until they needed it.


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Yet there's not a mandate for employer insurance, and as I just explained, if there was no limitation on ability to purchase you'd have a lot of people opting out of coverage until they needed it.

We already understand why people aren't taking the mandated insurance and choosing to eat the penalty. The problem isn't with pre-existing conditions per se; it's with the ability to sign up when you get sick rather than having to wait for "open season". If people knew that open season was in October and only October and they might end up in a wreck or with cancer in January, they'd be more inclined to take it while they could get it.


I don't think the time lag issue is a major factor in the viability of healthcare on the employer market vs. the individual market. On average, if something happens to you, there's less than six months until the next open enrollment period. This does not help you if you get hit by a bus, but in that case EMTALA makes sure you get the treatment you need. The average person can't afford a hospital bill for major trauma anyways so it will just get written off and charged to "the system" in pretty much exactly the same way it would have had the person actually been insured. With regard to serious chronic problems, the system essentially not having to pay for 5-6 months of that problem for "opt-outers" before it has to start paying is just not enough to change the underlying numbers much.

This also has to be contrasted with the consequences on the employer market vs. the individual market. On the employer market, if you decide to go without healthcare, the worst possible result is you have to wait 5-6 months to start getting insurance to pay for whatever problem you developed. In an individual market that allows discrimination against pre-existing conditions, the worst possible result of going without insurance is that you are literally **** out of all non-emergency/Medicaid health care forever as no insurance company will ever touch you again.

Next, even if you had insurance, well, you'll get THIS problem paid for, but now you're high risk and your premiums are likely to be so high that you can't afford insurance anymore. So if you ever get another problem, sucks to be you. Also, if you develop a chronic problem for which treatment will take longer than the remaining length of your current insurance contract, you're not getting that paid for either and you'll also never be able to get insurance again afterwards. A person on the employer marketplace doesn't have to deal with any of these concerns, simply because he's on the employer marketplace. Also, while we do love to hate on fat people, the fact that the employer marketplace gives you the privilege of being able to be 400 pounds and still get cheap healthcare regardless is definitely another perk you get simply because you're getting healthcare via an employer.


Last edited by Xequecal on Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I actually have done the math on this one. First of all, your own source says the projected draw is $240k, I don't know where you got $120k from. It clearly says that out-of-pocket costs are $240k on average and that Medicare on average pays 50% of the costs, so that would mean Medicare pays $240k.


:shock:

Bro do you even math? Check your arithmetic.


If Medicare pays 50% of the health care costs, and out-of-pocket (read: costs not paid by Medicare) costs are $240k, then Medicare is also paying 240k. The total cost is 480k, the person pays 240k out-of-pocket, and Medicare pays the other 240k.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
I actually have done the math on this one. First of all, your own source says the projected draw is $240k, I don't know where you got $120k from. It clearly says that out-of-pocket costs are $240k on average and that Medicare on average pays 50% of the costs, so that would mean Medicare pays $240k.


:shock:

Bro do you even math? Check your arithmetic.


If Medicare pays 50% of the health care costs, and out-of-pocket (read: costs not paid by Medicare) costs are $240k, then Medicare is also paying 240k. The total cost is 480k, the person pays 240k out-of-pocket, and Medicare pays the other 240k.


It would have been a good idea to write it this way in the first place; without actually using the number 480K it sounded like you were saying 240k would be the out of pocket cost without any medicare.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:01 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
I don't think the time lag issue is a major factor in the viability of healthcare on the employer market vs. the individual market. On average, if something happens to you, there's less than six months until the next open enrollment period. This does not help you if you get hit by a bus, but in that case EMTALA makes sure you get the treatment you need. The average person can't afford a hospital bill for major trauma anyways so it will just get written off and charged to "the system" in pretty much exactly the same way it would have had the person actually been insured. With regard to serious chronic problems, the system essentially not having to pay for 5-6 months of that problem for "opt-outers" before it has to start paying is just not enough to change the underlying numbers much.


For many of the serious and expensive conditions, six months makes a major difference. Cancer in particular. Taken in context of the lower cost of employer health plans, yes, the limits on purchasing are a significant factor in decision making.

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This also has to be contrasted with the consequences on the employer market vs. the individual market. On the employer market, if you decide to go without healthcare, the worst possible result is you have to wait 5-6 months to start getting insurance to pay for whatever problem you developed. In an individual market that allows discrimination against pre-existing conditions, the worst possible result of going without insurance is that you are literally **** out of all non-emergency/Medicaid health care forever as no insurance company will ever touch you again.


No you're not. You go get the care and the system writes it off. People never actually go without healthcare if they ask for it. Certain providers might not touch you but there's lots of charity care available.

Quote:
Next, even if you had insurance, well, you'll get THIS problem paid for, but now you're high risk and your premiums are likely to be so high that you can't afford insurance anymore. So if you ever get another problem, sucks to be you. Also, if you develop a chronic problem for which treatment will take longer than the remaining length of your current insurance contract, you're not getting that paid for either and you'll also never be able to get insurance again afterwards. A person on the employer marketplace doesn't have to deal with any of these concerns, simply because he's on the employer marketplace. Also, while we do love to hate on fat people, the fact that the employer marketplace gives you the privilege of being able to be 400 pounds and still get cheap healthcare regardless is definitely another perk you get simply because you're getting healthcare via an employer.


If things really worked like this, individual plans wouldn't even be available for purchase. No one would buy them. You'd be smarter to just keep the money, pay what you could, and eat the bankruptcy if you had to.

As for fatasses, they may get to pay no more than anyone else, but the employers pay these costs, even in just the form of generally higher rates. This is why employee wellness programs are becoming more popular. People don't want their employers intruding into their lives, but there's a legitimate point that if you can't stop scoffing Doritoes and smoking 3 packs a day and you're losing time at work and costing money, your employer should be able to do something about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
You go get the care and the system writes it off. People never actually go without healthcare if they ask for it. Certain providers might not touch you but there's lots of charity care available.


That paragraph is what makes the ACA a load of ****. The care is always provided, no matter the patient's ability to pay. You may not be able to be treated at your preferred facility, but you will be treated. This has been the case since the indigent care law was passed.

The ACA is nothing more that trying to get the healthiest segment of the population to pay for the sickest. Robbing Peter to pay Paul, just as Taskiss said, and just another attempt by the left to socialize the country.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Kairtane wrote:
The ACA is nothing more that trying to get the healthiest segment of the population to pay for the sickest.


By itself, this isn't really a condemnation of ACA. The sickest people have the least ability to work and earn their own care. Most people in this country have no problem with entitlements that support those who did work, or who can't work, and I must say I really don't either. What I have a problem with is able-bodied people pleading the victim and getting benefits they don't deserve.

Please, ask me to rant about "disabled" veterans getting benefits they don't need. I have no permanent profiles after 19 years and I take my PT test. I can still road march 20 miles with full gear if I need to. Some little 25 year old **** getting 70% disability for his "back pain" needs a **** spanking.

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