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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:56 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
It just strikes me as hilarious how the left spun on a dime from laughing off viewing the Russian threat as a "cold-war era mentality" to suddenly the single biggest threat to our democracy in under four years.

Seriously. I mean, it's not like any significant developments have taken place that might warrant a reassessment since Obama made that comment in a debate back in 2012. Certainly no evidence of a systematic Russian disinformation and cyber-op campaign targeting western democracies has come to light, and Russia hasn't...I don't know...annexed part of any neighboring country, assassinated any exiled political opponents or their family members inside NATO, or gone militarily and diplomatically all-in on the opposite side from the US in a Middle Eastern civil war including greenlighting a ground assault by their proxies on US troops.

/snark off

Yes, Romney was right and the Dems were wrong in 2012, and the Dems' derision toward Romney's position was especially galling, given that Russia's malign intent was manifestly apparent even at the time. Still, Putin really has turned the dial up to 11 over the last 5 years or so, and however hypocritical or self-serving the Dems' belated recognition of that may be, it is nevertheless the correct response to the change in circumstances. Russia is making a move, and it's about damn time for both parties to deal with that reality and let the partisan electoral chips fall where they may.

ETA: Ditto re China, but that's a separate issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:48 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Seriously. I mean, it's not like any significant developments have taken place that might warrant a reassessment since Obama made that comment in a debate back in 2012. Certainly no evidence of a systematic Russian disinformation and cyber-op campaign targeting western democracies has come to light, and Russia hasn't...I don't know...annexed part of any neighboring country, assassinated any exiled political opponents or their family members inside NATO, or gone militarily and diplomatically all-in on the opposite side from the US in a Middle Eastern civil war including greenlighting a ground assault by their proxies on US troops.


Here's the thing, Putin has always been doing that. From providing air defense systems and training to countries we were either directly at war with or via proxy (Iran) to annexing portions of Georgia, all of this was going on then too. Democrats didn't complain at the time and honestly did nothing about Ukraine since then.

I could well be wrong but it seems the only threat that the left is willing to acknowledge from Russia appears to be a bunch of cyber trolls posting fake news and smarmy memes to Twitter, Facebook and Reddit.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:58 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
I am not sure what you are trying to say. Wasn't Hillary the SoS when Obama mocked Mitt for calling Russia a threat? It just strikes me as hilarious how the left spun on a dime from laughing off viewing the Russian threat as a "cold-war era mentality" to suddenly the single biggest threat to our democracy in under four years.


I'm trying to say basically this, but also calling attention (once again) to the obvious fact that the Russians serve their own interests. They don't just happen to always do what is politically convenient for the Democrats. They ALSO don't just happen to do what is convenient for certain subsets of the Democrats, nor are they interested in providing Hillary Clinton with excuses for being one of the worst Presidential candidates in U.S. history.

The Democrats are slowly coming to the realization that by making everything about Orange Man Bad, they have left no way for their candidates to differentiate from each other AND at the same time created the impression among ALL their candidates that all they have to do is win the nomination and they will win the general. Aside from the fact that this didn't work last time, now that you don't have an "anointed" candidate, every ******* in your party all think they can win. Elizabeth Warren is pulling up to Biden's level - and it is just now occurring to people that she might be alienating swing voters even more than Hillary did, because while Hillary was merely dishonest and arrogant, Warren is a **** lunatic. Hence, you see calls for Hillary, Michelle Obama, or Bloomberg, even with so many candidates that an effective debate is literally impossible* - even excluding some of the candidates.

In this environment, it was inevitable someone would spill the beans, and it was (even worse) Hillary. It was only a matter of time until someone used the same tactics they've been using on Trump against someone in their own party, and to their misfortune it was the worst person it could have been (Hillary) using it against a minor candidate (Gabbard) and a Green (lol) for no reason other than her own ego.

The Democrats have created a situation in which their desire to beat Trump next time is running head-first into their (and specifically Hillary's) inability to admit that they lost last time. The two are not compatible with each other. The danger here is that right now, policy by anyone (Trump, or any potential successor) towards Russia is effectively impossible. Any interaction with Russia (and now on to Ukraine, and then anyone else) is nothing more than a source of potential complaints for the other side - and any foreign leader can easily manufacture them with fairly minimal effort. It's very similar to the Syria situation - no effective policy is possible, since all options are bad. Because of that, anyone taking any option will be criticized for not taking a good option by the other side - even though no good option exists. This could have serious consequences if a crisis were to develop.

*The Republicans had an opposite problem last time. Too many candidates, but the media could not bear to elevate any of them over the others. As a result, rather than all attacking the front-runner, they all avoided attacking him and concentrated on attacking each other, hoping someone else would take him out. By the time Cruz tried, it was too late. Needless to say, this was a stupid plan, and Trump was nominated.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:13 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
It just strikes me as hilarious how the left spun on a dime from laughing off viewing the Russian threat as a "cold-war era mentality" to suddenly the single biggest threat to our democracy in under four years.

Seriously. I mean, it's not like any significant developments have taken place that might warrant a reassessment since Obama made that comment in a debate back in 2012. Certainly no evidence of a systematic Russian disinformation and cyber-op campaign targeting western democracies has come to light, and Russia hasn't...I don't know...annexed part of any neighboring country, assassinated any exiled political opponents or their family members inside NATO, or gone militarily and diplomatically all-in on the opposite side from the US in a Middle Eastern civil war including greenlighting a ground assault by their proxies on US troops.


Snark aside, the Democrats were also outraged at the INF treaty withdrawal, despite the fact that Russia is blatantly violating it. Also, I would question if they are on the "opposite side" of the Syrian Civil War insofar as there are a lot more than two sides, and we definitely have mutual opponents there as well. Also, that entire situation could have been avoided by not getting into Syria in the first place.

RangerDave wrote:
Yes, Romney was right and the Dems were wrong in 2012, and the Dems' derision toward Romney's position was especially galling, given that Russia's malign intent was manifestly apparent even at the time. Still, Putin really has turned the dial up to 11 over the last 5 years or so, and however hypocritical or self-serving the Dems' belated recognition of that may be, it is nevertheless the correct response to the change in circumstances. Russia is making a move, and it's about damn time for both parties to deal with that reality and let the partisan electoral chips fall where they may.

ETA: Ditto re China, but that's a separate issue.


That's all true, the immediate problem is that the next set of electoral chips coming up is the Democrat's primary. It would be in their internal interest to do this, like it would be in their internal interest to do a lot of thing; not only do they have a field of candidates even more absurdly large than the Republicans last time, they have a lot more obviously silly candidates - and some of those silly candidates are doing far better than they ought. The press has portrayed the American public (outside of diehard Republicans and Trump supports) as so desperate to be rid of Trump that nothing else matters, which in turn means that the candidate can hold any position, no matter how absurd, on any other issue and win the general.

It is just now occurring to all involved that this is not, in fact, true, which is why we see desperate (even threatening) proposals from some candidates, and some calls for other people to enter the race in hopes of getting someone more viable.

It is turning out that having the press on your side is not the advantage it might seem to be. It weakens candidates by having them always campaign in a favorable environment, but it also causes candidates to believe things about the electorate that are not true, or about themselves. Kristin Gillibrand, no doubt, was eager to believe some of the fawning puff pieces written about her, but it turns out that the press in New York City has no better idea of what appeals nationally than she does.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:53 am 
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but it also causes candidates to believe things about the electorate that are not true
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Of course, that's a conservative assertion. Others need no extraordinary evidence, they're good with how the claim makes them feel.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:24 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
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but it also causes candidates to believe things about the electorate that are not true
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.


This claim was more evidence that Carl Sagan had an agenda than anything else. There's no arbitrary line that separates "extraordinary" claims from other ones. What he should have said was "A claim that contradicts existing evidence needs at least equally convincing supporting evidence." or something to that effect. What he really wanted was the ability to declare claims he didn't like "extraordinary" and then dismiss all evidence supporting them as not "extraordinary" enough, and that's how that line has been used since he originally said it. Where it's really frequently misused is when someone makes a claim where there's little evidence in either direction, usually by importing evidence of some other, but very different, argument or point, then just arbitrarily claiming the other side is making an "extraordinary claim" and has to provide "extraordinary evidence" against the massive weight of evidence... that is in favor of something they aren't actually arguing against.

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Of course, that's a conservative assertion. Others need no extraordinary evidence, they're good with how the claim makes them feel.


The problem for the Democrats at the moment is that they're the ones having an internal primary. The eventual nominee isn't actually running against a Republican yet.

There's other similar problems. Trump's approval rating among black people is actually pretty high for a Republican, and his disapproval rating is low, for a Republican, despite an endless barrage of "he's racist!" claims. I believe that what's driving this, specifically, is black MEN who are starting to understand that most of the issues that are supposedly about their race are really about their sex. This trend is pretty likely to continue, too; the fact that voting as a block for one party gives neither party any incentive to do anything (other than pay lip service to them) and, specifically, black males are starting to realize that criticisms of "white, straight, cisgendered, Christian males" include them as well in 3 or 4 of the 5 categories.

It's not looking good for them with lesbians, either, who are suddenly figuring out that protections for women is completely incompatible with allowing transwomen to pretend they are ACTUAL women. The online LGBTQ+ community is really good at vote-brigading out dissenting voices, but a growing number of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people are getting pretty alienated at the idea that actual women should get crushed by transwomen at sports, that people who don't even PRESENT as female can just walk into the women's bathroom on their own say-so... and worst of all, that you're a bigot if you don't want to sleep with people who's genitals don't match their apparent sex.

There's an increasing number of internet voices who are (or at least insist they are) on the left, who are echoing a lot of conservative concerns, but also are rather loudly wondering why they can have a civil conversation with Ben Shapiro but cannot have one with people that ostensibly share their own political leanings.

There's really deep fissures in the left right now that normally would not exist. The reason they do exist is almost entirely the press covering for extreme views, unacceptable behavior, and sheer nonsense out of a fear of not being able to go on forever with "Republicans bad, Democrats good", and recently "Orange Man Bad". It has destroyed the ability of the Democrats and the Left to internally self-correct. It has also created a very dangerous feeling of being under siege on the right, which first elected Trump and now feels justified, with Democrat candidates embracing ever-more-outrageous positions in an attempt to keep the charade up. The extreme left has been allowed to believe it can just browbeat the entire rest of the country into acquiescence because the press has been unable to stomach criticizing them.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:07 pm 
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So the story so far based on the Horowitz report:

The FBI investigation was warranted based on their standards to open an investigation

The FISA warrant was presented to the courts with the material omission about the source of the Steele Dossier

Carter Page's contacts with Russian Intelligence Officers should not have been included in the decision making since he was used in some capacity by the CIA to reach out to them. (This is what the FBI lawyer altered in documents.)

There is no evidence of collusion or a swap/exchange of information or political favor between Trump and Russia

Mifsud has been disavowed by all western intelligence agencies as one of their assets

Which is leaving Barr stating that the standard followed by the FBI to open an investigation is unfairly low and his guy Durham alluding to finding evidence of potential malfeasance.

Is this where we stand on Russia and Trump?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 9:29 pm 
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I love Trump. He drives everyone nuts, and I feel a lot of affinity for that sort of behavior.

Also, you heard it here first, the new term is malFISAnce.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:49 am 
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shuyung wrote:
I love Trump. He drives everyone nuts, and I feel a lot of affinity for that sort of behavior.

Also, you heard it here first, the new term is malFISAnce.


I could be wrong but I am getting the impression that Durham is not pursuing anything FISA related but rather looking at institutional controls and checks that may not have been followed due to bias.

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:58 am 
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shuyung wrote:
I love Trump. He drives everyone nuts, and I feel a lot of affinity for that sort of behavior.

Also, you heard it here first, the new term is malFISAnce.

Quote:
A man's greatness can be measured by his enemies.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:46 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
shuyung wrote:
I love Trump. He drives everyone nuts, and I feel a lot of affinity for that sort of behavior.

Also, you heard it here first, the new term is malFISAnce.

Quote:
A man's greatness can be measured by his enemies.

*ahem* Well thanks for that non-sequitur, I guess?

When is Durham set to wrap up his report?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:23 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:

When is Durham set to wrap up his report?


When he charges someone. He's conducting a criminal investigation; I don't believe he will be submitting (another) report.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:57 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
When he charges someone. He's conducting a criminal investigation; I don't believe he will be submitting (another) report.

I had forgotten that. So potentially this could never end since we don’t know what specific crime he is investigating and what the statute of limitations could be for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:00 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
When he charges someone. He's conducting a criminal investigation; I don't believe he will be submitting (another) report.

I had forgotten that. So potentially this could never end since we don’t know what specific crime he is investigating and what the statute of limitations could be for it.

Theoretically, but he won't actually be around forever. There's also only so much evidence ton uncover; at a certain point you have all the facts you're going to have. He's an actual U.S. Attorney, not ZA special counsel, so he has no personal incentive to just keep investigating past the point of futility.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:48 pm 
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I didn't think Donald Trump was rich enough to buy off all the Democrats and put them on his campaign staff, and yet the last two months seem to indicate that he did!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:08 am 
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DFK! wrote:
I didn't think Donald Trump was rich enough to buy off all the Democrats and put them on his campaign staff, and yet the last two months seem to indicate that he did!


Nancy's getting close to the point of no return; she needed to do something to shake things up.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:25 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
DFK! wrote:
I didn't think Donald Trump was rich enough to buy off all the Democrats and put them on his campaign staff, and yet the last two months seem to indicate that he did!


Nancy's getting close to the point of no return; she needed to do something to shake things up.

Getting close? She's going around claiming that Trump wasn't acquitted now, even CNN doesn't go that far! The cud chewer's grasp of reality isn't as tight as need be. I think she needs to graduate from ripping paper to popping bubble wrap for therapy.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:00 pm 
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I don't think she's lost it. She took the shot and missed. She's just trying to create a narrative that doesn't involve her looking incompetent. Honestly, I'll be surprised if her party keeps her around as Speaker again.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:17 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
I don't think she's lost it. She took the shot and missed. She's just trying to create a narrative that doesn't involve her looking incompetent. Honestly, I'll be surprised if her party keeps her around as Speaker again.


She's almost 80, on top of that.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:54 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
I don't think she's lost it. She took the shot and missed. She's just trying to create a narrative that doesn't involve her looking incompetent. Honestly, I'll be surprised if her party keeps her around as Speaker again.



For a bit she was between a rock and a hard place.

There are two things she had to deal with
1. The knowledge that an impeachment would fail in the Senate further making the DNC look like the out of touch and weak group it is.
2. The demands from the most vocal base that they impeach Trump regardless of outcome.

And to align this with her goals:
1. Get re-elected and with enough House advantage to remain Speaker
2. Destroy the rising power of 'the squad' as it threatens the support structure of old party DNC.

She can temper the squad's power she realized by extending their stay in the Senate and hopefully undermining Bernie and Warren by reducing their performance in Iowa. (Didn't work out so well). So she could get a bit of the first set into a possible advantage in the second. Looks like Bernie's results forced them Bloomberg into overdrive (also won't work the guy is obviously an elitist and has never if ever faced criticism to his face like he did in the debate).

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:14 pm 
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The problem with Bloomberg is he's not quite Trump enough. He's semi-Trump. He's quasi-Trump. He's the margarine of Trump. He's the Diet Coke of Trump, just one calorie, not Trump enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:34 pm 
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I don't know what's more awkward, the fact that the Democrats are almost in a state of glee at the Coronavirus, or the fact that they started claiming it was all Trump's fault over less that 20 cases inside this country. Obviously more can appear but come on - if you're going to use a potential crisis for political advantage don't be in such an unseemly haste about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 3:57 pm 
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Just because it's politically advantageous for Dems to point out that Trump's handling of the situation has been a complete **** doesn't make it any less true. Nor does it make it any less important for them (and everyone else) to call him on it because we all have a keen interest in getting the Administration's response **** as promptly as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:14 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Just because it's politically advantageous for Dems to point out that Trump's handling of the situation has been a complete **** doesn't make it any less true. Nor does it make it any less important for them (and everyone else) to call him on it because we all have a keen interest in getting the Administration's response **** as promptly as possible.


It could hardly be less true anyhow. There's no **** mainly because actually affecting the situation is pretty hard. The virus largely is what it is and Americans are notoriously hard to quarantine. The incubation period of the virus combined with hiw easy it is to spread made an outbreak near certain. The response has been fine, but in truth a terrible response or a superlative response were equally impossible.

Then there's the outright lie that the CDC had its funding cut or response capability has been gutted; both are patently untrue.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:22 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Just because it's politically advantageous for Dems to point out that Trump's handling of the situation has been a complete **** doesn't make it any less true. Nor does it make it any less important for them (and everyone else) to call him on it because we all have a keen interest in getting the Administration's response **** as promptly as possible.


It could hardly be less true anyhow. There's no **** mainly because actually affecting the situation is pretty hard. The virus largely is what it is and Americans are notoriously hard to quarantine. The incubation period of the virus combined with hiw easy it is to spread made an outbreak near certain. The response has been fine, but in truth a terrible response or a superlative response were equally impossible.

Then there's the outright lie that the CDC had its funding cut or response capability has been gutted; both are patently untrue.


This. Especially the first paragraph.

Containing a virus in a free country when that virus can be virulent (read: contagious) while also being asymptomatic equals: just wait and see who dies.

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