The Glade 4.0

OK, so how is that different from normal scientific theory?



I would say being ignorant of risk is pretty risky behavior. Other than that, I agree.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

Coal is a nuclear warhead. That's what you are arguing. Remember, without limit is an almost incomprehensible concept. That means coal=ray gun. Not just "coal can be used to build a ray gun" but coal *is* a ray gun. Infinite is infinite.



But there aren't an infinite number of things that can be done. We are limited by our selves and our resources. If resources are limited in any way, then so too is wealth. If production possibilities are limited in any way, then so too is wealth generated from those possibilities.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Now you're just using induction and circular logic. You only believe there are a limited number of uses for a given thing because something doesn't have infinite uses.

You still haven't addressed the problem with your domain theory - you are saying in order for some domain to be infinite, it must occupy the inifnite space all other infinite domains do. That is simply not true.

Are you arguing subtracting a finite amount from an infinite amount leads to a finite amount?

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

That's utterly silly. Wealth is limited because coal isn't a raygun? Completely absurd.

Showing that there is a limitation on wealth in the entire universe is irrelevant. You need to show some upper limit of wealth that's meaningful in terms of our situation on earth. That's like claiming solar energy is a limited resource becuase the Sun has a limited lifespan. That doesn't mean **** to us in any reasonable timeframe, and more importantly, the Sun's death will render the issue irrelevant.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I am saying very clearly that wealth is limited because resources are limited. All resources, including human ingenuity and thought. There is a top end limit to what we can generate given our scarce resources. Is there more potential for wealth than what we currently generate? Clearly. But that is not the same thing as saying that wealth is infinite.

Come up with a situation where in resources are not in any way scarce, and you have a point. Of course, without scarcity, there really isn't an economy. All of our laws of supply and demand go right out the window.

We are limited by our limited resources, both human and otherwise. Wealth is not infinite. It is a zero sum game.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

The scientific method for testing the theory is the same, but I'm talking about the law itself that the method is meant to discover. Sorry, having trouble getting my point across, I guess. Basically, I'm saying that physical laws are what they are regardless of human behavior or beliefs, while economic laws are entirely dependent on those things. For example, humans used to think the sun revolved around the earth, and our actions were influenced by that belief, but our thoughts and actions were irrelevant to the physical reality that the earth actually revolved around the sun. On the other hand, there is no "physical reality" that says labor = money, so the validity of that claim is entirely dependent on whether or not people believe and act as if it is. One person or one culture might act that way, while another person or culture does not. Our beliefs and behaviors might change over time. And so on. Thus, "labor = money" is not a law in the same way that "earth revolves around sun" is a law.

Monte, just because something is finite doesn't mean it's distribution at any given point in time is zero sum. If the maximum number of widgets possible is 100, but we're only producing 50, then there is room to increase production and divide the additional widgets in a way that leaves everyone with more (i.e. in a non-zero sum way). Fine, maybe some day we hit the ceiling, but until that day (which is not going to happen any time soon in the real world), we have plenty of opportunity to grow the pie in a way that benefits everyone.

Let's do a little exercise.

Let's imagine for a moment that everything on earth - sky, minerals, water, people - everything, was on sale. And let us imagine for a moment that Khross had amassed enough wealth and power to purchase all of it. All of the thought. All of the innovation, all of the resources natural and human. All of it. Every patent was his. Every invention, his. Every person, his. Every resource, his.

Given an infinite amount of time (which he doesnt have, and neither does the earth, nor our species) he could count and total every single thing he owned - from every grain of sand to every drop of water.

But he would have found his limit. And because he owned *everything* no one else would own *anything*.

But Khross, despite theories to the contrary regarding his status as a homosapien, is in fact, human. And as such, he is limited. He is limited by the physical resources in his brain. He is limited by his body. And he, too, will one day perish.

His ability to generate wealth is not, in fact, limitless. It is not infinite. The same holds true for everyone else on the planet. We are all limited in scope by the very bounderies of human existence and the raw amount of resources available on our planet.

Those resources are scarce. If you have some of them, I cannot have what you have. I am less because you are more.

Obviously this example is a bit silly. However, it is intended to make a very simple point - a core tenant of economics is that resources are scarce. Wealth is derived from the use of those scarce resources. You cannot squeeze infinity from the finite.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

This. Well said.

RangerDave:

The validity of the claim that "labor = money" is not dependent on human behavior or belief. That's what you seem to not be grokking here.

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I absolutely agree that we are limited by our current production possibility curve, and that we can extend that curve. That's growth. That being said, I absolutely reject the notion that we can extend that curve infinitely, that growth is infinitely sustainable, and that wealth generation is infinite.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Montegue:

How many non-integer values exists between 1 and 1.2 ?

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Is the amount of sand on the earth, right now, finite or infinite?

We aren't talking about theoretical non-integers here. We are talking about actual, existing resources. Infinite growth is unsustainable. Infinite wealth is an impossibility. Infinite anything actual, as it pertains to people, is impossible.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Montegue:

There are still infinite possibilities within bound sets. That's what you seem not be grasping here.

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Of course it can be. The entire history of humanity has been nothing more than trying to push the PPF curve right and upward. Because it cannot reach infinity does not mean it cannot expand infinitely.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

What is the length of the North American shoreline, measured around each grain of sand? ...

That's it; I'm going straight to hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

But there really aren't when it comes to actual resources and humanity. We only have so much to work with. That does set a limit.

Again, my opposition is to this idea that wealth and production are somehow infinite. We cannot sustain infinite growth because we do not have the resources to sustain infinite growth. We live on a planet. That planet defines our resources, in terms of raw material as well as human potential.

Unless of course you think that there is no limit to human potential. That's a fine thing to believe, just like it's a fine thing to believe that the world is only six thousand years old. But it's not a terribly legitimate position to take when it comes to rationality or science. We aren't talking about theoretical quantities. We are talking about actual quantities.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Actually that's exactly what it means. It cannot reach infinity. It cannot expand infinitely, either, unless we do away with scarcity.

And furthermore, at any given moment, we are limited by our current curve. Yes, we can try to push growth, but we have these big recessions in many ways because we see growth as limitless. We push and push and then realize that the factors of production aren't actually there. We are limited by the factors of production. Those factors define the curve. Innovation can change the curve, but innovation is not infinite. Humanity has only been around for a blip on what is otherwise a very, very long road. Our expansion is a tiny fraction when compared to the total time our species has been around, let alone our planet and our universe. When you use words like infinity, that's the realm you are playing in.

Within the current curve, wealth generation is clearly not infinite. Resources are scarce. Thus, the ability to generate wealth is limited.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

How are you defining the terms "labor" and "money"? As I understand them, labor is basically effort (which is partly a function of time), and money is a store/measure of value. So, when you say, "labor = money," I understand that to mean, "the value of a good is a function of the effort involved in producing or acquiring it." Am I understanding your statement correctly?

Argumentum ad nauseum; bare assertion fallacy.


You keep saying this without proving it.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

You desperately need to take a college pre-calculus course. I'm sorry if that sounds offensive, but you are just plain talking out of your *** in pure math terms.

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"It's real, grew up in trife life, the times of white lines
The hype vice, murderous nighttimes and knife fights invite crimes" - Nasir Jones

I've already proven it, DFK.


How can you have infinite wealth without infinite resources?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

We aren't talking about vague numbers here. We are talking about actual resources.

Are our natural resources on this planet infinite? Yes or no?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Why's it got to be limited to this planet?

Why is any such limitation actually meaningful?

The speed of light is an upper limit on possible speeds; that doesn't mean **** when we're designing cars and airplanes.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Are we currently using the limited resources of another planet? The limitations are meaningful because they determine the sum total of what we can produce.

Without infinite resources, there cannot be infinite wealth. You can't drive forever on an empty tank of gas.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show