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Diamondeye
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:17 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
And yet another view on it, is that to me it's a very obvious pacebo affect and another bit of evidence that there isn't a God.


Except that it's not such evidence. It may be to you, but that's not scientific; it's just you seeing it the way you want to see it.

What you're really doing is making a circular argument:

"There isn't a god, which means the health effects of prayer are obviously a placebo effect, which is evidence there isn't a God."

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Hopwin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:32 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
I agree it doesn't by itself prove or disprove God. For me it's just another thing in a long list that in my eyes discredits the concept.


Fair enough, re-reading your post I can see that's where you were going. Sorry I got left at the station by that train of thought :lol:

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Aizle
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Aizle wrote:
And yet another view on it, is that to me it's a very obvious pacebo affect and another bit of evidence that there isn't a God.


Except that it's not such evidence. It may be to you, but that's not scientific; it's just you seeing it the way you want to see it.

What you're really doing is making a circular argument:

"There isn't a god, which means the health effects of prayer are obviously a placebo effect, which is evidence there isn't a God."


Well, it's actually more nuanced than that. Prayer is in effect basically meditation. It is a process of calming the mind/body and allowing your brain to process the things that have happened. Whether you're meditating on God or your belly button, it really doesn't matter much. It's the enforced relaxation and side effects from that which actually provide the results. Is that view scientific? Nope, and never claimed it to be.

However, when surrounded by all sorts of mundane and observable, repeatable explainations for things, why create something you can't see, hear, touch, understand to explain them? (that's rhetorical btw)
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Hopwin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:46 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Well, it's actually more nuanced than that. Prayer is in effect basically meditation. It is a process of calming the mind/body and allowing your brain to process the things that have happened. Whether you're meditating on God or your belly button, it really doesn't matter much. It's the enforced relaxation and side effects from that which actually provide the results. Is that view scientific? Nope, and never claimed it to be.

However, when surrounded by all sorts of mundane and observable, repeatable explainations for things, why create something you can't see, hear, touch, understand to explain them? (that's rhetorical btw)


I am sorry I should have linked to the original study, it was people who were prayed for, not people who pray for themselves.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02177.html

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Diamondeye
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Well, it's actually more nuanced than that. Prayer is in effect basically meditation. It is a process of calming the mind/body and allowing your brain to process the things that have happened. Whether you're meditating on God or your belly button, it really doesn't matter much. It's the enforced relaxation and side effects from that which actually provide the results. Is that view scientific? Nope, and never claimed it to be.


Prayer can be done like meditation, but it isn't always. There are lots of ways to pray and they don't all involve the same type or degree of mental focus.

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However, when surrounded by all sorts of mundane and observable, repeatable explainations for things, why create something you can't see, hear, touch, understand to explain them? (that's rhetorical btw)


The question is made useless by the obvious fact that people didn't observe that praying works to make you better, then decide that there must be a God.

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Wwen
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:47 pm 
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Way to ruin anti-depressants for everyone, Newsweek. Assholes.

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Nevandal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Anti-depressants work, at least for some people with some conditions. Absolutely, without question. I've seen this in action and it is night and day.


Sure, the article doesn't question that.

However, it also shows that Placebo's work just as well.

This doesn't really surprise me, and as I think about it, depression is an illness that more than anything is affected by what you think. Mental attitude is the core of both the illness and the cure. So if you think you'll get better, you will.



this!

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Wwen
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:57 pm 
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Mental illnesses can can have a depression component.

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Imperi
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:09 pm 
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My mental illness (Bipolar 1) has a depression component. But it's difficult to know if I'm actually depressed. There's not a message scrolling across my mind "you're depressed now". I didn't even realize I had a mental illness until relatively recently.

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Kaffis Mark V
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Aizle wrote:
And yet another view on it, is that to me it's a very obvious pacebo affect and another bit of evidence that there isn't a God.


It doesn't prove or disprove God. Just because I don't believe God intervenes in the world doesn't mean I don't whole-heartedly believe in Him. I just feel He is not a waiter floating above in Heaven taking orders in the forms of prayers.


I agree it doesn't by itself prove or disprove God. For me it's just another thing in a long list that in my eyes discredits the concept.

Your logic would fail any philosophy class, let alone a science class.

Not p does not imply q.

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Lex Luthor
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Aizle wrote:

I agree it doesn't by itself prove or disprove God. For me it's just another thing in a long list that in my eyes discredits the concept.

Your logic would fail any philosophy class, let alone a science class.

Not p does not imply q.


And yet when your social circle believes in God, especially during your childhood, it somehow implies to you that God exists. That fails philosophy too. Hmm...
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Kaffis Mark V
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Belief in God is (okay, I'll cover my *** here, "almost") always couched as a matter of faith, though, Lex. It's a belief, not a proof.

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Lex Luthor
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Belief in God is (okay, I'll cover my *** here, "almost") always couched as a matter of faith, though, Lex. It's a belief, not a proof.


Since you have just said it is not a philosophical matter, there is no reason you should be attacking Aizle for un-philosophically discrediting it.
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Kaffis Mark V
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:59 pm 
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I wasn't attacking, I was just arguing against his statements, which used the words "disproves" and "evidence" which imply a logical, philosophical, or scientific arena.

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