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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:40 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ta-Nehisi Coates has an interesting take on the negative media coverage the Tea Party protests have received:

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GOP folks and Tea Partiers are increasingly peeved that their movement is being depicted in the media as filled with angry crazies on the verge of violence. As someone who's studied protest, and demonstrated a couple of times myself, I think part of the problem is quality control.

I date back to the Million Man March, when there was great concern that the hordes of black men descending on Washington might break out into a riot....I was a student at Howard at the time, and like all the other prospective Marchers, I read the papers and was well-versed in notion of not embarrassing your people in front of white folks. The last thing any of us wanted to do was to march down to the Mall and have the next day's headline read, "Niggers Can't Even March Without Fighting." ...We thought the media was looking for trouble, but we also thought it was within our power not to give it to them.

I think we got some of that sense from the Civil Rights movement's choreography. These guys were the masters of protest as propaganda. The Montgomery bus boycott was a strategy and Rosa Parks was not some witless old lady, but a civil rights worker who'd been trained to accord herself a certain way. When Martin Luther King would be arrested he dressed a certain way, he seemed to try to convey to the cameras a kind of solemn restraint. The marches themselves were choreographed, and the strategy of nonviolence was drilled into anyone who'd protest.

I hear GOP folks and Tea Partiers bemoaning the fact that media and Democrats are using the extremes of their movement for ratings and to score points. This is like Drew Brees complaining that Dwight Freeney keeps trying to sack him. If that were Martin Luther King's response to media coverage, the South might still be segregated. I exaggerate, but my point is that the whining reflects a basic misunderstanding of the rules of protest. When you lead a protest you lead it, you own it, and your opponents, and the media, will hold you responsible for whatever happens in the course of that protest. This isn't left-wing bias, it's the nature of the threat.


I agree with this. Especially the line about Drew Brees and Freeney. It's just the nature of politics. Democrats/Liberals/Progressives will paint this movement as racist and violent, period. The media is sympathetic to this cause and they will be happy to help, not to mention it sells papers which trumps even ideology. The more evidence you give them the more they will use to sway public perception. That's just reality. EDIT: This is not to say it's fair obviously. Nor is it to say the people in this movement should stand for it. They should however, expect it and do what they can to reduce it, and fight back when smeared this way.

Best example is the gentleman who brought a (legal) assault rifle to protest an Obama rally. Perfect fit for the meme! But, unfortunately for MSNBC, he was black. (****!). Not to worry, they edited the footage to not show his skin color and suggested he was white:

[youtube]UYKQJ4-N7LI[/youtube]

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:52 am 
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Honestly, I don't think Obama is "keeping it real" enough.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:54 am 
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Back to the original OP and the editorial contained with in, her position is one of revisionist history, coupled with the blind eye support of the mainstream media that shows its bias in what gets attention.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:25 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice and compromise in the pursuit of justice no virtue.


Interesting how any extremism can be easily rationalized.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:12 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice and compromise in the pursuit of justice no virtue.


Interesting how any extremism can be easily rationalized.



Do you disagree with the statement, because the statement does not state than any extremism is justified, just that there are cases when there is no middle ground.

For example say I desire to kill you, you desire to live - should we meet in the middlground where I simply pummel you until you collapse? Or is extremism in the defense of your right to life and liberty acceptable?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:34 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice and compromise in the pursuit of justice no virtue.


Interesting how any extremism can be easily rationalized.



Do you disagree with the statement, because the statement does not state than any extremism is justified, just that there are cases when there is no middle ground.

For example say I desire to kill you, you desire to live - should we meet in the middlground where I simply pummel you until you collapse? Or is extremism in the defense of your right to life and liberty acceptable?


It's much more easily rationalized when you try to find simple black/white examples to back you up.

No, I don't necessarily disagree. Just as I don't automatically disagree when you replace "defense of liberty" with "saving chilren", "helping people", "doing what's right", "following God's word", etc. I'm sure folks that believe any of these can rationalize their extremism just as easily, and find a simplistic black/white example to back them up.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:37 pm 
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I tend not to believe in viewing the world as shades of gray. The use in blurring morality is that it is the easiest possible excuse for not investigating moral issues. By proclaiming that everything is of a mixed morality one has excused oneself of the responsibility of trying to find morality, or even of having to ascribe to one.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:44 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
it is the easiest possible excuse for not investigating moral issues. By proclaiming that everything is of a mixed morality one has excused oneself of the responsibility of trying to find morality


The same can be said of an absolutist view. By refusing to acknowledge shades of gray, one need not investigate the nuances of morality and can instead simply bask in the comfortable illusion of certainty.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:45 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
I tend not to believe in viewing the world as shades of gray.


Well, that's dumb. You can believe the world is black and white, but it doesn't work that way. Black and white is easy, gray is hard. But the world is gray. In believing the world works in a way that it does not, you end up an extremist. You oversimplify the world and lose the ability to compromise; thereby limiting your ability to work within the confines of the real world.

You're not doing yourself a favor.

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The use in blurring morality is that it is the easiest possible excuse for not investigating moral issues. By proclaiming that everything is of a mixed morality one has excused oneself of the responsibility of trying to find morality, or even of having to ascribe to one.


Likewise, by maintaining a black and white morality, you inevitably (read: MUST) clash when you come into contact with other viewpoints.

There are shades of gray even within your own overly simplified example.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:52 pm 
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You know me Arathain, I've always been swayed by such powerful argument as "that's dumb".

I've already shown how gray is the easy course in life and black and white is hard - at least it is hard when you actually care about finding out where the black and white are.

It's easy to have some information on a topic and see it as gray, its harder to investigate and see the pixels of black and white that actually cause it to appear to be gray from far away.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:54 pm 
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And yes it will lead to conflicts Arahtain. Are you suggesting that the pursuit of truth is not worth pursuing if it means you must come into conflict with falsehood?

I find your entire argument to be one based on convenience instead of some higher pursuit.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Saying you don't believe in black and white is synonymous with saying you don't believe in cause and effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:47 pm 
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Black and white thinking is false dilemma thinking unless you can demonstrate that the dilemma actually exists in any given case.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:32 pm 
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No, it is not a false dilemma unless you can prove that a moral statement cannot be deifnitively made, and must do so according to the morality of the person you are engaged in discussion.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:27 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
No, it is not a false dilemma unless you can prove that a moral statement cannot be deifnitively made, and must do so according to the morality of the person you are engaged in discussion.


No, you don't need to do any of that. The burden of proof is on the person makign the moral statement. There is also no requirement to stick to any person's morality.

The rules of logic do not change for your convenience.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:22 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
I tend not to believe in viewing the world as shades of gray. The use in blurring morality is that it is the easiest possible excuse for not investigating moral issues. By proclaiming that everything is of a mixed morality one has excused oneself of the responsibility of trying to find morality, or even of having to ascribe to one.


This explains so much about you.

And your last sentence couldn't be further from the truth. The opposite in fact is what's true there, because you acknowledge varying levels of morality, you actually take on more responsibility to have to balance them and find the correct path.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:41 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
No, it is not a false dilemma unless you can prove that a moral statement cannot be deifnitively made, and must do so according to the morality of the person you are engaged in discussion.


No, you don't need to do any of that. The burden of proof is on the person makign the moral statement. There is also no requirement to stick to any person's morality.

The rules of logic do not change for your convenience.


These are not about the rules of logic as a moral system cannot be proven. They must be internally consistent. In order to make a logical argument within the system you must confirm to the rules of the system itself (otherwise you are making an argument based on another morality and with no intersection you are incapable of making ANY argument). Thus you must use the morality of the system to disprove it or you are simply ignored.

Much as Bery would ignore the quotes from the Koran of a muslim attempting to convince him to not eat pork for example - the moral argument is wholly outside his own moral code and thus is completely incapable of effecting change.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:42 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
I tend not to believe in viewing the world as shades of gray. The use in blurring morality is that it is the easiest possible excuse for not investigating moral issues. By proclaiming that everything is of a mixed morality one has excused oneself of the responsibility of trying to find morality, or even of having to ascribe to one.


This explains so much about you.

And your last sentence couldn't be further from the truth. The opposite in fact is what's true there, because you acknowledge varying levels of morality, you actually take on more responsibility to have to balance them and find the correct path.



I've never seen that occur in practice. What I have seen is the shrug of the shoulders and the statement that the world is shades of gray as the closing statement in discussion, because nothing can be known it is then foolish to attempt to know it.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:11 pm 
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Then our experiences have been very different.

If anything I've seen more of the kind of resignation you comment on with the faithful, who in theory have their morality spelled out for them. "God has a plan" or some equally banal comment meaning they don't have a clue and don't have any interest in actually trying to think about the problem.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Perhaps that is a symptom with those who use religion as the basis for their governmental morality?

I don't think it is an uncommon thing for most of the species to either invent or find and cling to a path which absolves them of having to think.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:35 pm 
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Sadly, I think you are right there. Most people are sheep.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:57 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
These are not about the rules of logic as a moral system cannot be proven. They must be internally consistent. In order to make a logical argument within the system you must confirm to the rules of the system itself (otherwise you are making an argument based on another morality and with no intersection you are incapable of making ANY argument). Thus you must use the morality of the system to disprove it or you are simply ignored.


Way to contradict yourself. First you say the rules of logic don't apply because moral systems can't be proven and then you turn around and say they have to be internally consistent. We determine internal consistency with rules of logic. Moral systems don't get to make up their own rules for internal consistency.

If your moral system contains a false dilemma, that indicates a problem with the moral system - it has an internal logical failure and thus is not internally consistent.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
These are not about the rules of logic as a moral system cannot be proven. They must be internally consistent. In order to make a logical argument within the system you must confirm to the rules of the system itself (otherwise you are making an argument based on another morality and with no intersection you are incapable of making ANY argument). Thus you must use the morality of the system to disprove it or you are simply ignored.


Way to contradict yourself. First you say the rules of logic don't apply because moral systems can't be proven and then you turn around and say they have to be internally consistent. We determine internal consistency with rules of logic. Moral systems don't get to make up their own rules for internal consistency.

If your moral system contains a false dilemma, that indicates a problem with the moral system - it has an internal logical failure and thus is not internally consistent.



There isn't a contradiction DE. Rules of logic cannot apply when mixing moral systems with different premises. Logic only takes truth as outcome if given truth as input. If you mix inputs it is useless.

Second it doesn't contain a false dilemma for a few reasons:
The first is: You know how you prove a false dilemma - you show a third option. You know the only way to show a third option in a moral system is doing it within the rules of that system.

The second is: nothing in my morality states that everything is black and white. I only said that I think the use of the gray morality is an excuse for laziness. I never stated that some area include actions that would be immoral in any decision (abortion in the case of rape for example is an instance where no use of force for a specific outcome would be moral).

The only person locked into a black and white, two outcome only view of thinking in this thread is you DE.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:32 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
You know me Arathain, I've always been swayed by such powerful argument as "that's dumb".

I've already shown how gray is the easy course in life and black and white is hard - at least it is hard when you actually care about finding out where the black and white are.

It's easy to have some information on a topic and see it as gray, its harder to investigate and see the pixels of black and white that actually cause it to appear to be gray from far away.


No, not at all. Black and white is easy, because you don't have to think. Like zero tolerance policies. They either broke the policy, or they didn't. Period. No room for thought, it's the lazy man's way.

What's hard, is perserving what is right while making allowances for the complexities of the world around you. A black/white man in a grey world is a simple man, an extremist constantly at odds with the world.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:41 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
You know me Arathain, I've always been swayed by such powerful argument as "that's dumb".

I've already shown how gray is the easy course in life and black and white is hard - at least it is hard when you actually care about finding out where the black and white are.

It's easy to have some information on a topic and see it as gray, its harder to investigate and see the pixels of black and white that actually cause it to appear to be gray from far away.


No, not at all. Black and white is easy, because you don't have to think. Like zero tolerance policies. They either broke the policy, or they didn't. Period. No room for thought, it's the lazy man's way.

What's hard, is perserving what is right while making allowances for the complexities of the world around you. A black/white man in a grey world is a simple man, an extremist constantly at odds with the world.


While that can be the case for some it is not necessarily the case for all. By far the most used excuse I see for not even attempting to investigate an issue deeper is because "its all a gray area". As I've already stated; investigating is hard, waiving off all investigation as pointless because nothing can ever be determined is easy.

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