The Glade 4.0

True enough, but if one dislikes both parties, it's pretty much a waste of time. YMMV.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

This.

I voted for Obama, am overall pretty pleased with his performance, and am glad the healthcare bill passed. From my point of view the system is working as well as can be expected.

I certainly was less pleased when Bush was in office, but I do try and take a big picture view of things. Admittedly that is hard when you think there is an idiot in office, so I understand why some of the folks here are railing against Obama and the legislation that's going through.

Not exactly. In that case the people doing the sanctioning are the ones being held accountable, not the ones doing the shooting.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

That's a really dangerous slippery slope, and one that has been denied by our own military.

Seriously? Pretty pleased overall? The man is an inveterate liar and consummate fraud, but you're still drinking the Kool-Aid on "Health Care" reform that's going to increase cost, decrease access, decrease coverage, and decrease available providers as a good thing? If you think the system is working pretty well, then I can only assume you neither care to research government behavior or that you're truly convinced by the Marketing Campaign of Federal Politics (see Žižek).

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Are we talking about morally or legally?

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Yes. Seriously. Based on my observations of: the human race, how societies function, other countries, alternate government options, my own moral compass and current cultural norms.

Aizle:

Current cultural norms? From exactly which social construct? The United States isn't demographically or ethnographically homogeneous for there to be a unified set of cultural norms. Indeed, there are competing cultures within any given ethnicity in the United States. So, since you want to wade into the deep end of the pool on this, substantiate your assertion that Obama's Presidency is comparatively effective.

Of course, you'll need to first establish the comparative criteria and reference points you're using.

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I don't particularly feel inclined to explain myself to you Khross. We both know that I'm not going to change your opinion. My response was purely to clarify that yes, I do think he's doing a good job overall.

Aizle:

So, you can't justify your opinion? Or, is it you once again don't want to deal with inconvenient realities?

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What are you talking about? We're talking about who God holds accountable. Our military hasn't denied or confirmed anything about God's opinion on various killings. How exactly is it a "dangerous slippery slope"?

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

DE:

A commander gives an order to go kill civilians in Iraq. The marine in his command goes out and does it.

Based on Rorinthas' comments, I would assume he means the Commander is the one who should be held accountable. However, as I understand it the military has already stated that soldiers should not follow unlawful orders.

I guess the question becomes who has the authority to "sanction", but that seems to be pretty grey.

Further, I don't believe that soldier in the above example should be exempt from being held accountable for their actions.

They wouldn't be. You have a duty to disobey an illegal order.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

What U.S. law do you break if you kill a non-U.S. civilian in non-U.S. territory? Or are these soldiers subject to laws not of the U.S.? Just wondering.

What part of what I said was too hard to understand? No one is talking about who should be held accountable for killings in earthly terms. The entire conversation is about under what circumstances God holds people accountable for killings.

In the case you're talking about, both the commander and the Merine would seem to be accountable as far as God is concerned because an order to just go kill a bunch of civilians is illegal, making the killing murder. It should also be noted that even if it weren't illegal, God also doesn't sanction the authorities or society just making any rules they want; if the rules in question are not acceptable to God, He will hold those who made the rules accountable.

That is not to say he'll start punishing entire nations in an Earthly way; it's to say that He will hold the authorities accountable after death in the same way as everyone else.

Exactly what He will do in specific circumstances is, however, up to Him. We can only speak of this in very general terms; none of us can know His mind and therefore we can't answer what He might say about specific situations. That way lies trying to speak in God's place.

We're not going down any slippery slope here because no one is advocating that we conform our legal system exactly to what God would decide. We aren't God and can't know; trying to do that would be futile.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

That depends on how and why they got killed. Sometimes "civilians" shoot at you and its ok to kill them. Sometimes they get killed in the process of attacking a legitimate target or because you were defending yourself against someone else shooting at you and that's ok too as long as yo didn't use an absurd amount of force; for example an entire battalion of artillery to kill a sniper in a residential area.

If you just start popping the helpless for no reason, thoug, you violate UCMJ.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Based on what D.E. said, a military court martial has the authority to sanction.

A court martial would not be able to sanction a killing because they would not be involved until after a killing had taken place and here was probable cause to think it was not sanctioned by proper authority (or that a killing of that nature could not be sanctioned by any authority).

They might "sanction" it after the fact with a Not Guilty verdict, but that would really just mean that it was properly sanctioned in the first place. Most of the time a "sanctioned killing" means one that adheres to the rules of engagement, not one where some officer said "go pop so-and-so".

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Little of column A, little of column B.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I'm not a complete theological expert, just a layperson. It's not an issue I would have wanted to delve into without it being brought up. So I'm not gonna presume upon God, and be honest and say I don't have answer in every scenario. I just wanted to bring up the point that God differentiates, between war and murder, and a brief overview of the early history of Israel as put forth in the old testiment makes that obvious. Individual members of the nation of Israel are told to not murder, but collectively during their taking of the land are told to destroy the inhabitants thereof in their war against them.

I think in that scenario an individual would have to make their own judgement. Hopefully if they are saved individual they would seek God's will on the subject of if they would defy their orders or target civilians.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

by this definition then, abortion isn't murder

I don't care one way or the other, but actually, society is pretty clearly in the "abortion is morally wrong" category.

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2010/01/ ... 264662086/

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In time, this too shall pass.

That's true, at least in the United States, in most circumstances. Abortion performed on someone involuntarily, for example, is still murder. Abortion is also murder in countries where it is illegal.

When people who oppose abortion say "Abortion is murder" what they're really saying is "abortion should be murder." Like I said, a killing is not a murder just because someone objects to it.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

To those of us who see in the law of God that abortion is murder, the argument does not fly. "Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood...."Isa 59:7

Obviously, I do not speak for all pro-lifers. But for me, debate about secular definitions of murder fall flat. Legally, in this country, "they make haste to shed innocent blood", and God condemns that. So do I.

Appeal to authority. *yawn*

The fact is you pick and chose your morality and then use the bible to justify it. Morality stems from society, and then is justified by religion, not the other way around.