The Glade 4.0

I believe the first iteration of the rules prohibited trolling, but we revised them about a month later and (among other things) removed the rule about trolling.

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3 things:

1) I'm not specifically talking about you.
2) It's fairly irrelevant, since it's perceptions that matter, not some argument between you and I. Since I'm talking about "pissing people off" in a generic sense, I don't see how squabbling over specifics is going to do any good.
3) I've already pointed out one such issue that I've had with your moderation in particular (appologies if it wasn't you), in heckfire. Again, though, I don't see this as relevant to my point.

*sigh*

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The Dude abides.

Exactly my thoughts!

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"Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use one!"~ Matthew Quigley

"nothing like a little meow in bed at night" ~ Bruskey

"I gotta float my stick same as you" Hondo Lane

"Fill your hand you son of a *****!"

I love how you're able to make the point about people being nice to each other by punctuating it with unpleasantness ::nods::

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Its a gift.

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Holy shitsnacks!

heh, it also helps that he knows me. I used to curse like a drunken sailor on shore leave. I am only recently starting to get better...

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Yes, perceptions. In other words, no matter what the mods do not everyone is going to be happy.

You also don't want to "squabble over specifics". Then how exactly is anyone supposed to know what the problem is other than just that you don't like it?

You made a good point earlier about the rules changing, and on the mod side, that was the crux of the problem - the rules got changed after Monty got banned because for some bizarre reason Dash decided they weren't working. This is in spite of the fact that they had worked by finally disciplining the biggest **** deteriment to the forum.

So yes, there's been a problem with the rules changing all the time because the administration apparently thinks if the rules are "working" there won't be complaints and no one will need to be disciplined, when the real point of the rules is to let everyone know what's expected so when there are complaints discipline can be issued, and further complaints can be addressed with "explain to me why you think the action taken was not in accordance with the policy."

But the other half of the problem is people just *****, pissing, and moaning because everything isn't being done exactly they way they'd prefer. Well, guess what? That's never going to happen.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Again, in this latest incident Bery was banned, Riov warned specifically, Talya removed as mod and warned via PM and multiple public general warnings were issued by myself and the other mods. Please stop either misrepresenting the facts or speaking from ignorance, it's making things worse.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

While I'll mea culpa on changing course in the heat of the moment, I'm not going to say that had any bearing at all on the incidents that followed. The only change I wanted was Hellfire to be less restrictive, the other sections of the Glade were to go on as normal. People lost their **** over it and panicked, frankly that surprised me. I may have mentioned my other board had a mini revolution to get the mods off our backs in our version of hellfire. It was a place to blow off steam and say what was on our minds without fear of "wah mommy" and someone having to step in. I thought that might be good here. Whoops. So again mea culpa there.

That said, is that why all the subsequent eruptions happened? I dont think it is. But again I tried my way and I am stepping out of the way for someone else to try and right the ship.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

I was using an example to make a general point, I'm sorry it got under your skin.

I would say that in general, more communication to the general forum of your intents would be helpful- ie, instead of just removing the rules posts to work on, leave a note in it's place.

When you remove and warn a moderator, post in the thread requesting action, and things would probably have simmered down quite a bit.

You mention you're surprised that people got all shaken up when you changed around the forum- I think any group that has been comfortable with the way something has gone responds poorly to sudden change.

Letting people know about the change ahead of time and keeping then informed as it progresses can often keep everyone on a more even keel.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

That's the thing. I don't think that Hellfire really needed to be less or more restrictive because of the incident. You'd already made a change - namely, coming down hard on Monty.

Yes, people were *****.

However, the fact that people were ***** was a reason NOT to change anything else.

Maybe you've heard of a concept called "chasing the guages". It's from learning to fly; an inexperienced pilot will tend to make a large correction with the controls causing the plane to go shooting past where he wants it to be. He then makes a correction back the other way and the same thing happens. The reason is that the guages tend to be a little behind where the airplane is and you have to wait for them to settle out a bit befoe you make another adjustment, or you'll be all over the place.

As for the blowups since, there's been a bit of simmering from the Monty issue but that was passing. This issue with Bery doesn't have anything to do with the ruleset, and really the issue with Monty didn't either.

The issue with both of them is that neither one of them is capable of participating in an internet discussion board about serious issues. They just don't have the ability to do it because they have no interest in discussion at all. Both of them are interested only in lecturing others. Neither one of them is the least bit interested in even addressing other's points because it goes beyond merely having their minds made up - it's a matter of being so convinced of the virtue of their position that other people's positions must be wrong and they must be right even if they can think of no reason why.

Discussion, is, to them, giving unwarranted consideration to positions that they just can't fathom might be correct, and that's why almost their entire posting history is simply lecturing everyone else. Not discussing the issue but making the issue the fact that others don't agree with them, and their outrage at it. Both of them spend most of their history not discussing the issues but engaging in histrionics that we're daring to disagree with them.

That's why they both had to go, and the issue had notihng to do with the ruleset, which was pretty good. It had to do with the fact that neither of them had anything to contribute other than antagonizim of other posters. Sure, others here do that too, but not anywhere near to the same degree.

Both issues were further complicated by something else.. Monty's case by Amdee's tragic death and this one by the fact that two other posters got going in the wrong forum about religious issues and everyone missing Bery's under the radar douchebaggery.

We didn't need Hellfire to be locked, we don't need new Miss Manners posting ruels to make it all niceynice, we didn't need a more free Hellfire or a Heckfire forum. Sure, they were all techniques for dealing with issues, and they weren't the end of the world, but none of them were strictly necessary after the troublemaker had been dealt with.

It's not that you're doing a bad job; it's that these "blowups" aren't that big a deal and don't call for major changes.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

First off, congratulations on making Kaffis leave. One of the few remaining posters with half a brain in his head is gone. Fantastic job, lets have a round of applause for that mod/admin staff that **** on his concerns in order to avoid any real self-evaluation. Cheers, gentlemen.

Second, Taly is no longer a mod. Praise Jesus. Now if only we could figure out a way to get her to leave and take the other heathen pagan slut ex-mod with her.

Third, Nitefox seems to have found the Lord again. Everybody, let's hear it for Nitefox. I haven't seen him this shiny and witty since the old days when he and Monty used to go at it.

Now before I go any further, I want to clear up any misconceptions in advance. We had some confusion about this several pages back in this thread. Here are the dictionary definitions for two very important words. Make sure you read them carefully.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whine
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contempt

I find it amusing that a religion that professes to cleave to such ideas as forgiveness, redemption, and loving thy neighbor will have it's adherents crying for blood over a shitty Viagra joke. Let's face it, the people who got the most worked up are the same cockwads that got their panties in a twist over Muslims setting fire to Danish embassies in retaliation for printing a comic about Muhammed. Hypocrisy much? No! Not Christians!

Now I realize that some Christians (let's be honest, it's probably a sizable majority) are perfectly rational people. Well, for those of you who are, here's a hint - this thread is the reason why people hate adherants of your religion so much.

Let's get back to Kaffis for a moment. I can see where he's coming from. He's got some valid points earlier in this thread regarding Taly flame-baiting. I may not agree, but I feel him. I understand. As Shuyung stated earlier with regard to another poster, I think he has a much more charitable view of Bery's original post than is entirely warranted. He also overlooks that starting this thread goes against the rule about restarting a locked thread. Is that convenient for Kaffis? Damn right it is, but I don't think Kaffis overlooked that intentionally. This is an issue that could have been addressed and clarified in the rules. Instead, Kaffis was largely ignored until a member of the mod/admin staff decided to **** in his face. That's okay, though, because there has to be a sacrifice to get that heathen ***** taken off the mod roster! Kaffis was basically thrown under a bus. His own brothers in Christ latched onto the idea that Taly broke some board rules easily enough, but nobody wanted to discuss a sticky rules issue that might mean we can't turn right around and call Taly a cow. Sorry, Kaffis! We can only follow so many of Christ's teachings, and today we picked the one where we have to hate on non-believers. But that's how you are. You sell one of your own down the river so you can live free of guilt.

I went back and checked. Taly posted her inflammatory joke on a Tuesday. The thread was locked on a Tuesday. The Christians had a good solid two days to praise Jesus to their little hearts' content before that immoral whore dropped in and blasphemed.

I read more of this thread than it really deserved. Someone else previously expressed this opinion, it might have been Arafys, but more inflammatory and insulting things were said regarding Taly than she made about a religious idol. I get it - she provoked you. Well, you provoked her, too. Now let's not get into any of that childish **** about who started it. Lenas finished it, or tried to, but you couldn't leave well enough alone and started it back up. So put your pitchforks down. You aren't holy warriors, you're retards on a witch hunt.

Bless Lenas' **** heart, he's doing the best he can with a shitty hand, a raggy flop, and no outs.

You've laughed and chuckled when she made catty comments to or about Monty. It's all fun and games until there's a political cartoon about Jesus, then the infidel has to die. You're not all that different than the Muslims you used to decry back when it was fashionable to hate arabs. Taly wasn't any more childish than you are, and it wasn't that her posting style "changed" or any such nonsense. You just forgot she wasn't Christian. You may have even forgotten that she's a dyke. You thought she found Jesus like LadyKate, and just wasn't telling anybody because she'd be embarrassed after so much time as a raving feminist pagan lesbian. But it's okay, you understand, you were shy about finding Jesus at first, too. Then she made the Viagra joke, you realized she wasn't Christian, and you did what good Christians have been doing for centuries every time they encounter nonbelievers - convert or kill.

And I know it sounds like I'm bashing Christians left and right - that's because the decent Christians bailed on this thread.

Did Taly break some rules? Kaffis certainly had a good argument for it. Should she have been stripped of her moderator standing? There's merit to that argument as well. But why stop there? She wasn't the only antagonistic *****. She wasn't the only person crossing the line, and moreover, her posts in this thread aren't what she was supposedly de-modded for (although that's bullshit, we know she was de-modded for her spat here with the religious folk). As the story goes, Bery asked to get banned, and frankly, I'm not convinced that wasn't just him grandstanding and playing the victim - he did that **** every bit as much as Monty. Rynar and I were warned, and while I can't say anything about Rynar (whatever he was warned for, I didn't catch it), I certainly deserved mine. I deserve another one for posting this, because frankly an unmoderated Hellfire is complete and total bullshit. But more people should have gotten warnings. A shitstorm this big doesn't happen with only a few people crossing the line.

That's exactly the kind of thing Kaffis left over. This board doesn't consistently and evenly uphold rules. That was never the intent of the mod staff from the start. I said before that the only reason we had moderation this time around was to ban Monty, and that's a bogus reason to promote mods.

And for Dash, because I see he's waving his dick around again: Don't start that **** about what the mods were doing, as if they've done a fantastic job. There are three actual mod-text posts in this thread. (Four, but one was a continution by Michael after moving the thread). One to move it, one to warn Rynar and I, and one to ban Bery (at his own request). People didn't seem to notice Taly was removed as a mod until days later, probably because it was never actually announced. You haven't done squat. I went and looked over the post history for you, Lenas, and Michael over the past week and a half. (Mookhow too, and it isn't really even his job). The only thing you personally might have done was to dismiss Taly as a mod because she got a bunch of Christians to get their panties in a twist.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Ya know what Coro, you are wrong about where my personal frustration comes from. I'm angriest at Taly, because I consider Taly to be my friend. I genuinely enjoy her, and had thought to know her some, as I had let her see me. I won't discuss the meat here. That's between her and me, and we'll separate that out... as friends do... but ****... I get upset with the brighter people I know when they engage in foolishness. Can't you see that?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Not trying to argue, but I wanted to add 2 pieces of information that you wouldn't normally be privy to, since they didn't occur in one of the public forums. First, Talya was removed as a mod primarily based on something that occured in the Moderator forum. Yes, we have one, and yes, we talk about you behind your back. Second, Talya posted approximately half an hour after she was demoted saying in this thread (paraphrased) "I'm not a mod anymore". A formal statement wasn't made regarding this action, but, well, my boss complains that I'm not good about giving status updates either.

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Man this thread is still going? I take a break for a while and it like the energizer bunny.

I wish any of the threads I started had the staying power and rancour of this one. I fail as a troll.

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

Well, technically, it did die down for about a week. It only resurged in posts in the last day or so. So it's not like it's been going the entire time.

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so would you say the thread has "Risen again"? Sorry I could not resist, night shift and little sleep has made me sillly.

On a seriose note I hate to see people leave over internet discussions, but if it gets too you too much, I guess you have to draw your own lines. *hugs* to those remaining and *salutes* to the departed (however hopefully temporary it is)

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"Life isn't divided into genres. It's a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
— Alan Moore

I still think we should have all gone with the segue into poop and fart jokes about 15 pages ago...

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

You know, you actually had some decent points to make if you could stop trying to blame everything on Christians there for a second.

First of all, the issue didn't start with Taly and was never primarily Taly; it was TheRiov coming in and trying to turn a General thread into a Hellfire discussion instead of just making a new thread.

Second, Taly's joke was definitely flamebaiting but the issue wasn't really whether or to what degree it was blasphemous versus funny. The issue was that, again, the Christian religious thread just couldn't be left alone while in the past the very occasional Wiccan thread has been studiously left alone. The "prayers for Rhode Island" thread was left alone by all, since it wasn't Christian-specific/ There haven't been any Muslim threads saying "Happy Ramadan" or whatever but you can be damn sure they'd be left alone, because if anyone went into it or a Wiccan one and started a controversial discussion or whatever you and a few others would be right here talking about what an awful job the Christians are doing upholding your standards of Christian behavior.

The fact is that when Taly's talked about Muslims int he past it's been in the context of a controversial issue, and therefore might be guilty of contributing little of substance but at least was done in the right forum. When she's gotten up in Monty's ***, it's similarly been in the proper forum and better yet, it's been over his personal dishonesty and douchebaggery.

Finally, you totally ignore the fact that no one but Khross caught on to what Bery was doing until later, and when he did, a number of us re-focused on Bery's douchebaggery in trying to slip some controversy in under the radar in General.

You're firmly in the "whatever Christians do it's going to be wrong" camp. Ok, we get it. Try to at least stick to the facts.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

While I understand that folks want to recap the blow-up in extensive detail, I don't see that as getting closer to deciding if there will be any changes because of it.

I suggest there should be, but I don't necessarily think this thread is the place they should be made. That said, there will come a time and a place, and I have a suggestion:

Foremost, the most important thing for folks is predictability. Smack them when they expect it and it's no big deal, but smack them from behind and they get pissed. So, I think changes - if and when they happen - should be first communicated and then discussed...THEN implemented.

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In time, this too shall pass.

I'm not sure he should have been banned. I mean, there's not a lot of Gladers left... it could have been reconciled somehow.

Yeah...Coro, usually I dig your stuff. This one? Not so much.

I got pissed. It wasn't really so much what she said. I didn't think it funny, clever, witty or whatever else. Pretty low brow to be honest. What I did get pissed at and more than likely over reacted at was the attitude. You see, that's what sets me off on this board. 1. People intentionally being assholes at certain times(something I think everyone has done from time to time), 2. People consistently being assholes and thinking they are victims or justified, which isn't that common but we have a few good examples of those kinds.

I laugh at whether you think I thought she was a Christian or had completely changed her ways. Not the least bit concerned about her beliefs. Acting like a ***** because she thought she had the right to and is completely justified is what set me off.

Things like what Taly did happen from time to time. Folks get pissed, then they get over it. I did. Did I lose some respect for her? Yeah, It think so. Not because I thought she had FOUND THE LIGHT!! But because I thought she had gotten pass the take a shot at others for no reason than her own enjoyment. I'm wary of her and the next time it happens, I'll probably just roll my eyes and not be surprised. It's a lot like Rynar just said. I got pissed at someone I had come to respect and thought of as a friend because they thought it was cool and justified to disrespect me. That's pretty much it.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

I respectfully disagree. I wasn't being facetious when I said I thought he was evil. There are some that can cause hatred for an entire demographic and he was one. I believe those kinds of people are responsible for Christian hatred by what would otherwise be tolerant folks.

At one time, I considered myself a Christian ... yet one of the reasons I stopped posting here was because I became aware of changes beginning in myself, in my spirituality. I started going down a road that could only lead to hatred, and me and hatred just don't compute. I'm a very happy guy, and while I'm opinionated, I am totally open to others being just as opinionated.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming him for my shortcomings, but I do believe he falsely communicated the way to prepare oneself for redemption based on concepts he imagined were necessary, not ones advocated by the works he himself claimed were authoritative for that purpose.... a false prophet preparing folks not for divinity to redeem them but for corruption and hatred to fill them.

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In time, this too shall pass.

For the sake of further clarity since it keeps coming up, Talya was simply removed as a mod by me. It wasnt only the comment in the original Easter thread that forced it, as Moo mention, at the end though I made the decision after this post: viewtopic.php?p=55945#p55945

It wasnt formally announced because I didnt particularly enjoy doing it and didnt want to give the impression I was waving someone scalp around as some sort of trophy or warning.

Once again that sort of nonsense was never ok in the general forums of the Glade as far as I'm concerned. Also, once again, that cuts both ways. If you're crapping on anyone with the sole intention of pissing them off it falls under the same category.

EDIT: This was mentioned by me several times by the way. I know not everyone hangs on my every word but it was done:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2549&p=56345&hilit=removed#p56345

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2549&p=56361&hilit=removed#p56361

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2549&p=57885&hilit=removed#p57885

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe