The Glade 4.0

Yup, and I find that pretty frightening. A nice segue into Khross' point is that the line has been fading for decades, but I fear it's gathering stream.

_________________
"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Gets worse with every "crisis".

Did you attend public schools?

_________________

This ought to be good. Yes.

Aizle:

You don't think that informs your opinion of what the government does or how you perceive it as behaving? Tell me what you remember about your high school Civics Class. Tell me the first time a teacher suggested Abraham Lincoln might have been something other than a hero.

The further removed a governing body is from your day to day life, the more powerless your vote becomes. You can change things in City Hall. You can make the County Commissioner accountable for his actions. The guys in Washington? They lost all accountability with the Seventeenth Amendment. Indeed, tell me when you first learned that the Presidential election wasn't beholden to the citizens of the many states?

_________________

Everything informs my opinions.

So just as my public schooling has an impact on me, so does whatever education you've had.

Honestly, I remember almost nothing from my high school government class, other than there very highest level basics. It frankly was a terrible 30 min class. Hardly informative and wholely inadequate toward actually preparing someone to be a good member of society from a "how to interface with government" standpoint.

Most all of what I've learned about the working of government have been post high school and largely on my own.

I can't recall any particular Lincoln fanboi-ism from my history classes. He certainly was held up as one of the greater presidents, and much was talked about the difficulties he faced in his presidency. And certainly it was presented that the Union was correct and the Confederates were wrong.

It was high school when I learned about the electorate and how it functioned.

And while certainly that information has been incorporated into my overall picture of the world, it hasn't somehow brainwashed me into some pro-government fanboi, like you try and paint me as every time I don't subscribe to your ideas.

I've come by my ideas in I suspect much of the same way that you have. A complex and intertwined mix-match of education, personal experience, environmental conditions and individual ideological tendencies.

Aizle:

Except, you're still operating under the very first notion of government given to you in Kindergarten and First Grade: that it is a government of the people, by the people, for the people. You said, "The government is a reflection of constituents." That's not really the case; it just wants you to believe that. It is, in fact, precisely the populist mechanic that perpetuates any authoritarian regime that seems unstoppable.

In fact, it's not that I think you're a government fanboy, as much as it is I don't think you understand how social constructivism and social phenomenology changes the order in which things come to be. The United States has long since ceased to be the aggregation of its citizens. Rather, its citizens has come to be precisely the kind of people the government needs them to be to perpetuate its power. In that respect, things are terribly Orwellian. Children are taught to idolize certain values when do not exist in the actual practice of government. They are taught to believe in a myth not reflected by the reality of government. And, for the most part, none of truly give up those myths. The reality is far more insidious than we want to consider.

For instance, consider the general reluctance to evaluate the similarities between the Obama Administration and the Bush Administration. What's to be gained from factionalization in this regard? Why is it that the things Bush did are so atrocious, despite no change in policy or review by the Obama Administration? What are both Administrations doing, in practice, that continues to erode individual liberty and civil freedom? Where is the outcry against either? The inexorable march of government expansion wasn't halted during Bush's Presidency. It wasn't halted during Reagan's, for that matter either. Rather, the government continues to expand its net of control and influence, while the population focuses on issues that either don't matter or distract them from the fact the government speaks and acts out of both sides of its mouth. And all the while, the people implored, indeed led, to believe they are responsible for this monstrosity.

The ruling class in the United States is dangerous precisely because it knows it can exploit these myths and faux-values to perpetuate itself and its power. It merely has to provide the ultimate circus for its fans: the illusion of self-determination.

_________________

So the government is really the Matrix?

I understand what you're saying Khross, and trying very hard to not take offense to your condescending tone that infers that I'm still deluded by childish fantasy stories.

And while there are some elements of truth in your post about the nature of power, etc. I do not believe they are anywhere as overwhelming and ubiquitous as you make them out to be.

So I agree that in many aspects the government is expanding it's control. Where we disagree is on what the source of that expansion is. You see it as the government acting of it's own accord to the end of just becoming more powerful. I see it as a response to the pressures that we as citizens put on the government because we are collectively incapable of playing together nicely in the sandbox. Something happens, and the citizenry get their undies in a bunch, and scream, shout and DEMAND that our government do something about it. Amazingly our government responds by trying to do something.

Further, we also disagree on whether that expansion of control is a good or bad thing. In some areas, I feel that there is nowhere near enough government control and oversight. In others, I think the government is more controling and restrictive than it ought to be.

In the end, I get that you want the "good old days" back, but those days are long gone. For better or worse.

It's not condescension, Aizle.

_________________

Its human nature.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Then you might want to stop making assumptions about where I formed my opinions.

Aizle:

I'm not making assumptions about opinions. I'm talking about deep-seated cultural values that you and everyone else in this nation has been trained to internalize since the day they were born. Society is not the aggregation of the people within it; rather, individuals are the resultant product of societal pressures that exist with or without any given individual.

_________________

Based on that logic, then you should similarly think that Lincoln is a hero and the government is great.

Aizle:

I used to, actually.

_________________

So did I. So did everyone I talk to who has changed their position. Lincoln is lauded as a great American and a great President at all ages in this nation.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I loved Lincoln. He was my favorite subject of papers in high school. He was even the topic of one of my college application essays.

I think the deception that led to my earlier feelings on the man and his administration is perhaps that is why I feel so strongy negative about him today.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Ok, so enlighten me then. What is it about Lincoln that makes his such a terrible president?

Aah, so you mean you actually aren't bound by your education and indoctrination by government loving educators? What makes you special that you've been able to think clearly, despite being taught that Lincoln was great?

It's not just educators. Do you understand what I'm saying when I use the term social constructivism or phenomenology? Is the concept of regressive individualization that foreign to you?

_________________

Dude, how many times have we gone over Lincoln on this forum?

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

You're missing the point. Somehow you feel that you've been able to "see the light" and shake off whatever influences you've had in your life to get to the truth. Apparently you feel that either someone who doesn't believe as you do is either still under those influences, or is stupid. Perhaps both. In effect, you're just using big words to call someone dumb if they don't agree with you. I'm wondering what exactly it is that made you somehow special that you were able to resist the influences when you obviously think that I have not been similarly able to resist them.

No clue, not in any threads that I recall participating in or being interested in. If there's an existing one out there that I can read, link it.

Aizle:

I'm not thinking any of those things at all, which is what you don't seem to get.

_________________

Apparently. Why don't you try and explain yourself.

Aizle:

I tried. I asked you questions; you got defensive and took them as an insult. There's no point in explaining myself if you're going to assume that whatever I'm saying is some sort of put down.

_________________