The Glade 4.0

The "Americans aren't willing to do such and such job" line is such bull ****. There's tons of people willing to do just about anything to make money, the big problem is the pay. Immigrants are willing to accept far lower pay than your regular joe, and illegals lower even than that. They can do this because they're willing to skirt the law in so many ways. Just recently there was a story in our local news about a raid that was done on a house not too far from mine. It's built for like 15 people, but they had 50 living there. The guy that owned the place was just charging them all rent, making ridiculous amounts even though he charged them each so little.

These "unwanted" jobs would fill up just fine if there weren't illegals around to take them, they'd just be forced to pay a little more. The horror.

There's also the issue of the fact that it's not well known that some of these industries are running short of qualified people. For instance, did you know that there's going to be a huge shortage of surveyors within the next decade? This is a job that can actually pay quite well, but it's not something you see advertised all over the place like all the supposed well paying white collar jobs. There's lots of similar construction type jobs where the demand for knowledgeable workers isn't being filled, because no one knows there's a problem.

True, but they were too drunk to care anyway.

*nutkick*

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And somehow we are the racists in this debate?

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

I took it in the humorous spirit it was offered in.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I still think the kick was justified.

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psst, I dont think asians got much either.. totally jipped imho >.<

I really don't understand the "if we removed the illegals, US companies would be forced to pay enough to hire Americans" line. Isn't this the exact same logic used by people that want to raise the minimum wage? If you force them to pay more by removing illegal immigrants, they won't pay more, they'll just cut those jobs exactly the same way they would if you raised the minimum wage.

Not really. In theory rising the minimum wage would mean that they have to hire more efficiently. (less people with more pay doing the same amount of work as more people with less pay.)

I dont think removing the illegals would achieve that, it's more a US mentality thing.

yeah come on guys, that's a joke. Which reminds me of this...

NSFW!!!!

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

No, because all the jobs held by illegals will need to be either filled or eliminated. You can't cut all your crop gatherers or your crops won't get gathered. Sure, some of the jobs will be eliminated, but at some point people will just have to accept that they may need to pay more to get the job done, or close up shop.

You're not "forcing them to pay more" by removing illegal immigrants in the way you are by mandating a minimum wage. What you're doing is eliminating an artificial labor surplus to allow the labor market to work again. The labor market can't work right when another labor market dumps all its surplus labor on yours.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

And if someone had cracked a hispanic joke in this thread? They'd be all over said person. He wants to accuse us of of being out to get hispanics then crack a racial sterotype, and we're all supposed to laugh? I don't buy it.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

So, just for clarification, are you offended by the joke itself, or offended by what you presume to be a double standard?

The reason for lowered wage is not that there is a surplus in the work force but that illegals are usually willing to work at unwanted jobs for less pay. By removing illegals, you do not simply make legal immigrants (or citizens) want these jobs magically at the same pay. So essentially you Are forcing business' to up their pay to attract people for those jobs, as jobs still need to be done.

As a result, business' need to force these increases in spending by passing the majority if not all onto the consumer, and the "think of the children" crowd would immediately place the blame for this increase on the 'rich'.

Again it's down to the mentality of the general US atm, that it is better to live off the government, than work for the same amount (if not less). If you were a employer, it is smarter to hire a legal immigrant than break the law by hireing an illegal one. Unless of course, no legal immigrant would want the job in the first place.

edit. hmm just saw the above posts.. same point has been made. I guess the question is, are you guys willing to pay more for basic goods if the illegals are gone.

allow me to expand. Yes it was justmeant to be a joke, I get that. However to make a racial comment, albiet with humourous intent, doesn't equate the moral high point required to paint your opposition as a bunch of racists.

I'm not Irish, I don't have a dog in the fight itsself.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

You say the opposition is being racist. I say Kettle, meet Pot.

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I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"

Bah, don't make me post avenue Q again people!

Seriously. Lighten the **** up. RD made a response to me, and made a joke he knew I would find funny. Quit trying to poison the well, what he said here isn't indicitive of any sort of racism or bigotry. It has context. I disagree with him all the time, but to do it in this way, and to distort his intent, is dishonerable.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

As someone of Irish descent... Yeah we may have been drunk most of the time.. but who kept the houses from burning down in many many areas or kept the streets crime free? We drink because we keep your WASP asses out of danger when our problems would be solved by letting you all die in the fires we risked our lives to put out.

Joke or not; the double standard is bullshit.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Wow, should I be offended because of my German and Norwegian heritage (presumably the WASP you rail against) or proud of your spirited defense of my Irish heritage?

Take it down a notch DS, you're railing against one stereotype by highlighting another.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Where did he say that? I saw him specifically say it's not about racism, at least when pertaining to the cops enforcing this.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Why would you take a backbreaking labor farm work job for minimum wage when welfare pays you more for doing nothing? The only reason anyone would take a minimum wage job full-time is potential future advancement opportunities, and in that kind of manual labor position there is none. You would have to pay Americans significantly above minimum wage to take such positions and I just can't see that being economical in the slightest.

I appreciate the defense, guys. And Rorinthas, I get the sensitivity to perceived double standards, but I think there are a few things that take the sting out of it in this case. First, like Dash said, the racial imbalance in enforcement I foresee from this law is based on the cops' structural incentives (i.e. fishing in a well-stocked pond), not racism, so I wasn't trying to paint the opposition as racist. Second, I think there's a big difference between good-natured ethnic jokes and real-world government policies, so sensitivity to the latter doesn't demand sensitivity to the former (which is actually a lesson many of my fellow lefties need to learn). Lastly, I think the offensiveness of an ethnic joke depends very much on context. I figured the ironic timing of my comment (i.e. in the midst of a conversation wherein I was taking the pro-sensitivity position) and the fact that I'm obviously not really anti-Irish made it funny rather than offensive.

Why do you hate the Irish so much? You'd better go apologize to our Jesse Jackson equivalent... Bono,

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I'm not sure you could find a more insulting statement to make there Hopwin.