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 Post subject: More equality!
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:47 am 
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http://www.annarbor.com/news/black-stud ... /#comments

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Field trip for black students sparks controversy at Ann Arbor elementary school

An Ann Arbor elementary school principal used a letter home to parents tonight to defend a field trip for black students as part of his school’s efforts to close the achievement gap between white and black students.

Dicken Elementary School Principal Mike Madison wrote the letter to parents following several days of controversy at the school after a field trip last week in which black students got to hear a rocket scientist.

“In hindsight, this field trip could have been approached and arranged in a better way," Madison wrote. "But as I reflect upon the look of excitement, enthusiasm and energy that I saw in these children’s eyes as they stood in the presence of a renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position, it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.

“It was not a wasted venture for I know one day they might want to aspire to be the first astronaut or scientist standing on the Planet Mars.

“I also think it’s important that you know that I have talked to the children who did not go on the field trip, and I think they have a better understanding of the purpose of the AA Lunch Bunch now, as I hope you do. I’m sorry if any kids were upset by the field trip or my discussion afterwards with them, and I have let them know that.

“The intent of our field trip was not to segregate or exclude students as has been reported, but rather to address the societal issues, roadblocks and challenges that our African American children will face as they pursue a successful academic education here in our community.”

A handful of parents have complained to district administrators about the trip, the group and Madison. More than a half-dozen parents contacted AnnArbor.com to raise the complaints, but none would agree to talk on the record, citing concerns of reprisals to their children by Madison.

While there’s no clear agreement between the two sides about exactly what happened, most of the controversy centers on a field trip taken last week by the Lunch Bunch for African American boys and girls to hear a black rocket engineer talk.

District spokeswoman Liz Margolis said after the trip was over, those who went returned to their fifth-grade class and were greeted by boos by those who didn’t go on the trip. Margolis said Madison, who is black, heard the boos, and went to talk to the class. She said he and the class had a “discussion” about race issues.

“He wasn’t yelling at them. He was very passionate about it,” Margolis said.

Parents have complained he was yelling at the class and belittled a Muslim girl who said she also had experienced racism and discrimination.

The program itself began earlier this year after the school received its latest achievement results. Margolis said the Lunch Bunch came from the school’s School Improvement Team and is tied to that team’s goals. She said several other schools in the district have similar programs targeting specific subgroups of students who are at risk.

According to meeting minutes, Madison introduced the club to the PTO in February as part of the school and district’s equity work.

Parent Vicki Haviland, who is white and has three children at Dicken, said she is supportive of the overall program. Haviland is the secretary of the Dicken PTO and has filed papers for the open school board seat.

“I think the African-American Lunch Bunch is totally in line with the district’s equity work,” she said. “I think the field trip was a fine idea.”

She said she hopes the school and the district would “do a better job in talking about (race in education). Clearly there are people who don’t feel heard about it.”


So is it equality for all or not? Are we trying to look past skin color or not? Standard argument about had this been a white's only field trip, what would have happend...

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:57 am 
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I get how black students looking at and learning from a black rocket scientist can be inspirational. I just don't understand why white kids couldn't have also benefited from that also.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:03 am 
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Screeling wrote:
I get how black students looking at and learning from a black rocket scientist can be inspirational. I just don't understand why white kids couldn't have also benefited from that also.


This. Unfortunate and short sighted choice on the part of the principal.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:22 am 
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So wait, it isn't explicit in the article. ONLY black students were allowed to attend?

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:29 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
So wait, it isn't explicit in the article. ONLY black students were allowed to attend?


Yes. Remember, segregation magically becomes good when it's "closing the gap", or something. "Separate but equal is inherently unequal" is only bad when.. well, when it's bad, mmkay?

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 11:30 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
So wait, it isn't explicit in the article. ONLY black students were allowed to attend?

Yes, though it was by virtue that the group was attending the field trip as an official school group, which is restricted to black students only.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:02 pm 
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Quote:
In hindsight, this field trip could have been approached and arranged in a better way," Madison wrote. "But as I reflect upon the look of excitement, enthusiasm and energy that I saw in these children’s eyes as they stood in the presence of a renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position, it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.


Just think how it would have been even more impressive if even their principal didn't have such low expectations for the kids. Ahhh, the racism of low expectations, it gives such a good feeling in the guts of these "do-gooders". Be sure not to give the impression that this is an expected result of hard work and intelligence for everyone, no make it plainly obvious to these kids that this man is so rare that he must be shown only in groups of "his own kind". It sickens me how these people can't/won't see that the "help" they try to give these children is exactly what drains the natural drive to succeed from them.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:23 pm 
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Sorry Vindicarre... the principal is black, therefore he doesn't have racist low expectations.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:01 pm 
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But, I almost didn't.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:05 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Quote:
In hindsight, this field trip could have been approached and arranged in a better way," Madison wrote. "But as I reflect upon the look of excitement, enthusiasm and energy that I saw in these children’s eyes as they stood in the presence of a renowned African American rocket scientist in a very successful position, it gave the kids an opportunity to see this type of achievement is possible for even them.


Just think how it would have been even more impressive if even their principal didn't have such low expectations for the kids. Ahhh, the racism of low expectations, it gives such a good feeling in the guts of these "do-gooders". Be sure not to give the impression that this is an expected result of hard work and intelligence for everyone, no make it plainly obvious to these kids that this man is so rare that he must be shown only in groups of "his own kind". It sickens me how these people can't/won't see that the "help" they try to give these children is exactly what drains the natural drive to succeed from them.


I think you confuse the comments of the principle. The principle knows the kids can perform this well, it's that the kids don't think they can, because they don't have (their perception) as many role models to look up to that they can racial identify with.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:13 pm 
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So, the kids are racist, because only black role models are good for them?

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:20 pm 
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I may have, or I may be spot on. I think the fact that these kids are singled-out because they "need" to be "shown" that they "can" succeed "despite" themselves may indicate that without this program he expects them to fail, but that's just the logical part of my brain - not my gut.

Kaffis, c'mon you and I both know that black kids are different, they need to be shown these things, otherwise they won't internalize it, like they have the fact that they are different.

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Last edited by Vindicarre on Thu May 06, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
I think you confuse the comments of the principle. The principle knows the kids can perform this well, it's that the kids don't think they can, because they don't have (their perception) as many role models to look up to that they can racial identify with.

At least the principal recognizes he failed.


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:24 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
So, the kids are racist, because only black role models are good for them?


Actually, programs like this are how you teach children to be racist.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Why the **** do kids need role models they can racially identify with? This is just encouraging them to think they have special 'barriers' to overcome.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Why the **** do kids need role models they can racially identify with? This is just encouraging them to think they have special 'barriers' to overcome.


Exactly. This in turn forces them to invent a group to blame these "special barriers" on, teaching racism.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I think you confuse the comments of the principle. The principle knows the kids can perform this well, it's that the kids don't think they can, because they don't have (their perception) as many role models to look up to that they can racial identify with.

At least the principal recognizes he failed.

This is complete winnage.

Rynar, yeah, that's where I was going with that.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:44 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
I may have, or I may be spot on. I think the fact that these kids are singled-out because they "need" to be "shown" that they "can" succeed "despite" themselves may indicate that without this program he expects them to fail, but that's just the logical part of my brain - not my gut.


I suspect that statistics may be on his side indicating there is a good chance of that without some type of help.

Note that I'm not advocating how he handled the situation. From my point of view it is equally important for kids of other ethnicities to meet this particular role model, as he may provide inspiration for them as well, or perhaps dispell misconceptions (if one wants to still examine the race thing).


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Yup, we mustn't fall into the trap of treating these children as individuals. We must teach them that because they are black, they need special attention, otherwise they'll fail - because they're black, and that's what happens to black kids.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:01 pm 
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Obviously kids need to be handled as individuals. That doesn't invalidate some of the group statistics that are out there.


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 Post subject: Re: More equality!
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:05 pm 
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In fact, the reason more black kids fail, proportionally speaking, than white kids, is because they have a larger proportion of poor people. People look at this larger proportion of children not succeeding and think "It must be a racial barrier!" when in fact it's primarily socioeconomic, and if you were to compare proportions of racial failure at specific income levels rather than as a whole, you'd see that (surprise!) white kids who grow up poor in shitty neighborhoods fail at similar rates.

That's also why no one explains Asian's success at high rates by saying there's extra-easy paths they follow to success because of their race; it's patently absurd. They succeed because they have excellent work-study ethics across all socioeconomic bands. There's no reason white or black parents couldn't demand the same of their children, they just don't do so at the same rates.

The presence of group statistics is meaningless; it only explains that there are differences in success rates across races; it doesn't explain why. Trying to say "it's because of predjudice" or whatever is absurd. It doesn't explain why those same rates also correllate strongly to socioeconomic circumstance; it just assumes white kids succeed due to advantage, black kids fail because of disadvantage, studiously avoids mentioning asians, and ignores blacks who succeed and whites who fail.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:07 pm 
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I've never seen a method so effective at not treating them as individuals as taking them as a group, defined by one characteristic, and isolating them from the rest. It's for their own good, because these kids need it.

Edit: You're talking logic again DE, why do you always insist on taking it to that level?

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Last edited by Vindicarre on Thu May 06, 2010 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:09 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
I've never seen a method so effective at not treating them as individuals as taking them as a group, defined by one characteristic, and isolating them from the rest.


It is, however, very effective at producing another generation of followers for Al Shaprton and Jesse Jackson's successors.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:11 pm 
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What is creates is a perpetual voting block susceptible to the soft-slavery demanded by big-government politicians as a way to keep them in power.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Vindicarre wrote:
I've never seen a method so effective at not treating them as individuals as taking them as a group, defined by one characteristic, and isolating them from the rest. It's for their own good, because these kids need it.

Edit: You're talking logic again DE, why do you always insist on taking it to that level?


What part of "I'm not advocating how he handled this" do you not understand?


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