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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:20 pm 
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Fannie Mae last 13.1 billion, wants another $8.4 billion from taxpayers

Thank god they had nothing to do with the collapse, or this would be throwing good money after bad.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:38 pm 
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No kidding. What are they gonna do with the next 8 billion? Why, buy up the toxic assets the failing banks are looking to get off their books, I assume. What could possibly go wrong?

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:40 am 
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“Promoting sustainable homeownership and maintaining ready access to liquidity are our guiding principles in serving the residential markets,” said Williams.


When a company's bottom line is no longer making money... don't be surprised when they don't make money.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:25 am 
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And if they were promoting sustainable home ownership... they wouldn't be in the red $13 billion dollars in 1 quarter.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 8:26 am 
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Ladas wrote:
And if they were promoting sustainable home ownership... they wouldn't be in the red $13 billion dollars in 1 quarter.


Yeah... no kidding. Talk about Orwellian.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:30 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Ladas wrote:
And if they were promoting sustainable home ownership... they wouldn't be in the red $13 billion dollars in 1 quarter.


Yeah... no kidding. Talk about Orwellian.

I do not think this word means what you think it means...

Orwellian - relating to a political system in which the government controls every aspect of people’s lives

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:44 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Ladas wrote:
And if they were promoting sustainable home ownership... they wouldn't be in the red $13 billion dollars in 1 quarter.


Yeah... no kidding. Talk about Orwellian.

I do not think this word means what you think it means...

Orwellian - relating to a political system in which the government controls every aspect of people’s lives



I'm quite confident I do. Orwellian, in this usage, applies to the perverse co-option of language by a government entity.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:46 am 
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Rynar wrote:
Ladas wrote:
And if they were promoting sustainable home ownership... they wouldn't be in the red $13 billion dollars in 1 quarter.


Yeah... no kidding. Talk about Orwellian.


Not really. This is too blatantly idiotic to be Orwellian. Orwellian implies at least basic competance at fooling people. This is like when you come home and catch your teenager backing the truck out, and then when you ask where they thought they were going telling you "well it was crooked so I was straightening it in the driveway." It's one of those "Do you think I was born yesterday?" moments.

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I'm quite confident I do. Orwellian, in this usage, applies to the perverse co-option of language by a government entity.


Except they're not doing that. You're giving them far too much credit. This sort of rank ineptitude at deceiving the public doesn't deserve such dignification.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:52 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Ladas wrote:
And if they were promoting sustainable home ownership... they wouldn't be in the red $13 billion dollars in 1 quarter.


Yeah... no kidding. Talk about Orwellian.


Not really. This is too blatantly idiotic to be Orwellian. Orwellian implies at least basic competance at fooling people. This is like when you come home and catch your teenager backing the truck out, and then when you ask where they thought they were going telling you "well it was crooked so I was straightening it in the driveway." It's one of those "Do you think I was born yesterday?" moments.

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I'm quite confident I do. Orwellian, in this usage, applies to the perverse co-option of language by a government entity.


Except they're not doing that. You're giving them far too much credit. This sort of rank ineptitude at deceiving the public doesn't deserve such dignification.


I disagree. There is simply too much evidence of Fanny's and Freddy's complicity in the current economic situation. They are using this as a screen to deflect blame for that role, and it will work, because most people are content in their ignorance and want to believe government has their best interests at heart.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:02 am 
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Rynar wrote:
I disagree. There is simply too much evidence of Fanny's and Freddy's complicity in the current economic situation. They are using this as a screen to deflect blame for that role, and it will work, because most people are content in their ignorance and want to believe government has their best interests at heart.


1) I don't see how they could possibly use their need for yet another government bailout as a screen to deflect blame for their need for a previous government bailout.

2) You don't actually know what "most people" think; you're just assuming they think that.

3) The average person is suspicious of government in some respects, trustful in others, and indifferent in still others, mainly because they realize that referring to "government" as if it were some entity that actually had any collective thought process is nonsensical. "Government" has no hostility nor favor towards people's best interests. It has a conglomeration of people who individually have people's best interests at heart to varying degrees. The fact is that each of those people cares about the best interests of different people, to different degrees, and has different ideas about what serve those interests. Pretending that "government" has any collective ideas is a vast oversimplification.

The fact of the matter is that this will not fool anyone. It's being brought to the public's attention by news outlets that are practically chortling with glee at the opportunity to sell news by exposing ready-made ineptitude, incompetance, waste, and idiocy.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:49 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I disagree. There is simply too much evidence of Fanny's and Freddy's complicity in the current economic situation. They are using this as a screen to deflect blame for that role, and it will work, because most people are content in their ignorance and want to believe government has their best interests at heart.


1) I don't see how they could possibly use their need for yet another government bailout as a screen to deflect blame for their need for a previous government bailout.


I suppose in the over-arching theme of the article is more Randian than Owellian, but the specific excerpt you presented us with was absolutely Orwellian, as it presented the historical mission statement of a government entity stating that it's purpose and roll are and has been the perfect opposite of what they are and what they achieve.

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2) You don't actually know what "most people" think; you're just assuming they think that.


The people who vote in our country have largely incorporated ourselves into the fabric of our government, in doing so we have incorporated the rest of the country as well, as we passed laws that have given rise to a domestic policy that is invasive and pro-active in many aspects of all American lives. Whether I disagree with these things or not doesn't matter, the fact is that they exist, and most voters support some varying percentage of them and feel that the government is acting with their best intentions in mind. In addition to the voting minority, the votes cast by them also effect the largest group of non-voters who benefit from the social programs and infrastructure payed for by others, this second group needs the government to redistribute wealth into it, and support it for that reason. These two groups combined make up a simple majority of our country.

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3) The average person is suspicious of government in some respects, trustful in others, and indifferent in still others, mainly because they realize that referring to "government" as if it were some entity that actually had any collective thought process is nonsensical. "Government" has no hostility nor favor towards people's best interests. It has a conglomeration of people who individually have people's best interests at heart to varying degrees. The fact is that each of those people cares about the best interests of different people, to different degrees, and has different ideas about what serve those interests. Pretending that "government" has any collective ideas is a vast oversimplification.


Given my above response, I would say that clearly the government exists because most people are satisfied with it more than they are opposed to it, otherwise we wouldn't have it anymore. For them to be satisfied with it, the good things an individual thinks the government does for him would have to outweigh the bad, or in other words "have the individuals best interests at heart". Also, how in the world can you make this claim after saying that I have no way of knowing? You do? What's your magic trick?

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The fact of the matter is that this will not fool anyone. It's being brought to the public's attention by news outlets that are practically chortling with glee at the opportunity to sell news by exposing ready-made ineptitude, incompetence, waste, and idiocy.


You have far more faith in our "news outlets", and have a much higher opinion of the average person than I do.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


Last edited by Rynar on Tue May 11, 2010 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:51 am 
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You guys are seriously arguing over whether these two companies are either stupid or nefarious? Who cares, they both suck, and contributing to further declines.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:55 am 
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Ladas wrote:
...stupid or nefarious...


I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 11:04 am 
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Rynar wrote:
I suppose in the over-arching theme of the article is more Randian than Owellian, but the specific excerpt you presented us with was absolutely Orwellian, as it presented the historical mission statement of a government entity stating that it's purpose and roll are and has been the perfect opposite of what they are and what they achieve.


Except that it isn't stating any such thing. It's stating that its mission has changed from being a profit-generating entity to pursuing an ideological goal regarding housing. You're reading a far more deep-seated effort at deception into it than is actually there. They're not attempting to hijak the language or anything like that except insofar as they're fooling themselves as well.

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The people who vote in our country have largely incorporated ourselves into the fabric of our government, in doing so we have incorporated the rest of the country as well, as we passed laws that have given rise to a domestic policy that is invasive and pro-active in many aspects of all American lives. Whether I disagree with these things or not doesn't matter, the fact is that they exist, and most voters support some varying percentage of them and feel that the government is acting with their best intentions in mind. In addition to the voting minority, the votes cast by them also effect the largest group of non-voters who benefit from the social programs and infrastructure payed for by others, this second group needs the government to redistribute wealth into it, and support it for that reason. These two groups combined make up a simple majority of our country.


You are missing the point entirely. Most people do not feel that the government is acting wih their best interests in mind. Most people agree that the government is acting in their best interests in some areas and not in others. There are many people, for example, that praise the government for attempting to maintain these housing policies on one hand while loudly castigating the government in other areas, such as foriegn policy.

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Given my above response, I would say that clearly the government exists because most people are satisfied with it more than they are opposed to it, otherwise we wouldn't have it anymore. For them to be satisfied with it, the good things an individual thinks the government does for him would have to outweigh the bad, or in other words "have the individuals best interests at heart".


The problem with this is that mere "dissatisfaction" with the government doesn't mean people think a better alternative is reasonably available. It also assumes that people are either "satisfied" or "dissatisfied" with the government. They are rarely one or the other except in media polls that artificially divide it into those two oversimplifications.

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You have far more faith in our "news outlets", and have a much higher opinion of the average person than I do.


I have no faith whatsoever in news outlets, which you should know by now. That does not change the fact that this very article was almost gleeful in exposing this nonsense, knowing that it would create outrage, and outrage sells. I don't need to have any faith in the news media to know that they love a gigantic mess they can sink their fangs into. The media may have bias, but bias only goes so far in the face of a scoop and profit.

As for the average person, one of the biggest problems in discussions here is the lack of confidence in the average person most people here have. We ahve a lot of people that like to assume that the average person is just like the average of all average persons. It is not true that the average person blindly believes everything they are told. That's just the arrogance of people here liking to pretend they are members of some special crowd that's smarter and better informed than all the "average" people we're supposedly beset with.

Ladas wrote:
You guys are seriously arguing over whether these two companies are either stupid or nefarious? Who cares, they both suck, and contributing to further declines.


Yes. Misattribution of the results of incompetance to malfeasance is a serious problem. It distorts the issue by creating the appearance of grand agendas that really don't exist in any coherent way.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:05 am 
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Its not incompetence and malfeasance on the part of the FM's, but on Congress, that is the bigger problem.... take enlighting display of incompetence of Dodd

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'We all should have done a better job." So said Senator Chris Dodd yesterday in discussing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, in what ought to go down as the understatement of the young 21st century. Yet such general and less-than-abject remorse wasn't enough for Mr. Dodd and his fellow Democrats to vote to reform the money-losing government-owned companies and clean up the mess they made in the mortgage market.

As Banking Chairman, Mr. Dodd was declaiming on the Senate floor that the toxic twins absolutely, positively, no doubt about it, need to be reformed—just not yet. He thus opposed Arizona Senator John McCain's amendment to his financial regulatory-reform bill to shrink the mortgage giants, raise their underwriting and capital standards, cap the taxpayer losses (now $145 billion and counting) and eventually shut down the failed enterprises.
Mr. Dodd countered with a bold plan to authorize Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner to . . . conduct a study. What has Treasury been doing for the last 17 months? Mr. Geithner is the fellow who lifted the $400 billion bailout limit on Fannie and Freddie last Christmas Eve. Now Mr. Dodd promises that Mr. Geithner will conduct "a tough study." Tough on taxpayers most of all, as Fan and Fred continue to bleed red ink by Treasury design so they can subsidize mortgage borrowers to avoid foreclosure.

For much of yesterday's debate, Mr. Dodd was visibly angry. Perhaps that is because he was left alone on the floor to defend the most expensive of all federal bailouts. Thanks to his own sweetheart mortgage from Countrywide Financial—a leading Fannie business partner—Mr. Dodd isn't running for re-election. But other Democrats chose to spend yesterday's debate in undisclosed locations. They were no doubt thrilled to enjoy federal witness protection from C-SPAN's cameras as Fan and Fred's longtime opponent, Alabama Senator Richard Shelby, described the various reform efforts they had blocked over the years.

The end of an excruciating two hours on the floor finally brought a smile to Mr. Dodd's face. The Connecticut Senator closed his remarks by saying, "All time has expired, I believe . . . I hope."

What taxpayers are hoping for is the expiration of federal charters for these destructive too-big-to-fail institutions. Those hopes were ignored again as the Senate voted down the McCain amendment, 56-43. Only two Democrats, Evan Bayh (Indiana) and Russ Feingold (Wisconsin), voted with every Republican to reform the companies.

Senators can call their pending bill many things, but as Mr. McCain said yesterday, they should not dare call it reform of the financial system.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 9:22 am 
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The Organizational Organism is an interesting thing; governments, charity groups, churches, small businesses, corporations, even your guild all exist as an organic entity unto themselves. It is something beyond the sum of its parts. That said, the question remains much the same as it did in 1948: "This just tells me how; I want to know WHY." There isn't necessarily a single "why" to be gleaned from anyone or anything; just as you can't figure out how I think or why I think from a single neuron, you can't decipher the larger network entity that is the U.S. Federal Government. What we can do, however, is look at past behavior and accept this one startling truth: when governments run out of new territory on which to exercise their power, they turn their power toward their citizens.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:00 pm 
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I'd say it's more of a thing of when citizens run out of major external enemies to demand the government protect them from, they start inventing reasons for the government to protect them from other citizens.

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