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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:41 am 
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Uh oh! (They're right though)

750 Billion Euro to bail out the likes of Greece and Portugal. Oh em gee.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... wells.html

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By Allan Hall
Last updated at 8:28 AM on 12th May 2010

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German anger at the 750billion Euro Greek bailout is swelling as world markets slid after initial excitement at the bailout fizzled.

The headline on the front page of Germany's biggest newspaper, Bild, summed up the national mood, declaring: 'We are once again the schmucks of Europe!'

Meanwhile world stocks and the Euro dropped sharply today as the massive relief rally triggered by the plan to contain Europe's debt crisis fizzled out.

In Europe, the FTSE 100 index of leading British shares was down 107.88 points, or 2 per cent, at 5,279.54 while Germany's DAX fell 52.95 points, or 0.9 per cent, to 5,964.96.

The CAC-40 in France was 72.23 points, or 1.9 per cent, lower at 3,648.06.

Meanwhile on Wall Street, the Dow Jones industrial average was down 99.46 points, or 0.9 per cent, at 10,685.68 soon after the open while the broader Standard & Poor's 500 index fell 12.02 points, or 1 per cent, to 1,147.71.

All the world's major indexes enjoyed one of their best days in months yesterday after the European Union unveiled the massive 750billion Euro financial support package to defend the euro and prevent the debt crisis that started in Greece from spreading to other big debtor countries like Portugal and Spain.

'Markets are giving up a portion of yesterday's sharp gains as some of the bailout-fuelled euphoria in Europe has died away,' said David Jones, chief market strategist at IG Index.

Though the package has helped ease near-term concerns about a wave of defaults across Europe, concerns about the solvency of the indebted countries remain - whether governments, which are still running sky-high deficits, will be able to push through massive austerity measures for years to come.

'Unless measures are taken to deal with the underlying structural problems affecting the most indebted of eurozone nations, then the bailout package merely kicks the can down the road,' said Michael Hewson, analyst at CMC Markets.

In Germany, the uncertainties were having a far more immediate effect.

Hard-pressed taxpayers - led by a flailing coalition government that could be the template for one soon to be assembled in the UK - are being asked for more sacrifices to save a currency they never wanted at a time when the country has record postwar debt.

Britain's bill for the bailout varies between £10bill and £43billion. But there is no doubt on the continent that it is Germany that is picking up the lion's share of the tab.

Now German citizens have also been told that a tax cut is shelved for at least two years, and will probably never materialise in the life of this administration.

Last week their chancellor promised Greece over 22billion Euros worth of aid over the next three years.

On Monday that was made to look like loose change when Angela Merkel said Germany's share to underwrite the currency in total would be 123billion Euros.

Today, Bild said: 'The EU and the Eurozone want to spend a massive 750billion Euros to save the European currency. Germany alone will have to fork out 123billion Euros for its bankrupt neighbours.

'There is now not enough money for the planned tax cuts here!

'Are we really the schmucks of Europe?

'Chancellor Angela Merkel said: 'We are protecting the money of people in Germany.' Really?'

Voters already delivered their verdict on Mrs Merkel's handling of the Greece crisis by punishing her in a regional election on Sunday which saw her party kicked out of power in North Rhine-Westphalia.

The loss means she loses a majority in the upper-house of parliament in Berlin and will not be able to deliver reforming legislation without the consent of squabbling rivals - an almost impossible task.

There are rumours that the right-wingers in her conservative CDU party are plotting a coup against her - rumours strengthened by the visceral distaste for her latest largesse in trying to prop up the common currency.

'The biggest 'all-in' in the history of poker,' was how Henrik Enderlein, economics professor at the Hertie School of Governance in Berlin, described the massive aid package assembled on Sunday night in an effort to save the Euro from collapse.

Many observers see the measure as delaying the end of the Euro, not preventing it.

Kai Carstensen, an expert at the Munich-based Ifo Institute for Economic Research, said: 'I fear that states will no longer feel any pressure to lower their deficits.

'Should they not massively reduce their debts, the problems will only be bigger three years down the road because the stronger countries are currently guaranteeing the debts of the weaker ones.'

Europe's heavyweights could be taking on more than they can handle, he said.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... z0njLv77h4

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:03 am 
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Is it wrong that I am amused by the problems that the Euro is facing?

But Müs, why would you be amused by that? You ask.

Well... it all basically comes down to... **** France.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:06 am 
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Of course, since a good chunk of the debts that Greece, Portugal, Italy, etc. owe is to German banks, Germany is, in a way, just bailing out its own banking industry here.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:07 am 
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The markets slid about 1.5% and they think the sky is falling?

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 11:58 am 
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Given how their last round of schmuckery turned out, they ought to be grateful.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:00 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Is it wrong that I am amused by the problems that the Euro is facing?



Well Schadenfreude is a German word, after all.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Is it wrong that I am amused by the problems that the Euro is facing?
They're about to be our problems.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Müs wrote:
Is it wrong that I am amused by the problems that the Euro is facing?
They're about to be our problems.


**** France?

How are they going to be our problems? We're not on the Euro ;)

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Because they are? I swear ... remind me to stop talking about global economic interconnectivity and monetary diaspora on the Glade, self.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:31 pm 
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Well, yeah. They're on the Euro... and its their problem. They wanted to be special united snowflakes... let them reap the whirlwind.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:35 pm 
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No, actually, they didn't. And if you were remotely aware of all the backroom political and economic shenanigans that went on to make the Euro happen, you wouldn't be making such crass statements. Seriously, Arafys ...

1. Europe is still a major export market, especially for financial services. As much as everyone wants to ***** about "WallStreet", the economic collapse of the Eurozone and the Euro are going to be horrible for the people still working in the United States. Right now, all the U.S. has to export is services: guess what the second largest service economy on the planet happens to be?

2. Oil and other international commodities are being traded at values relative to the Euro. This happened about 5 years ago and no one paid attention. While, theoretically, this should be good for the United States to see the Euro die an abysmal death, what it really means is we're screwed. Since the United States is a PAPER Nation.

3. Greece > Austria > Spain > Portugal > Germany > The U.K. > The U.S. Dominoes.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:52 pm 
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So you support the EU bailout of Greece?

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Dashel:

No?

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:58 pm 
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You forget that Khross is hoping for the fall of the US so that Doomstadt can rise from the ashes.


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:05 pm 
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That's true I do forget that!

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Heh. I read you and I can see that that's all terrible. But still.. **** France ;)

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:16 pm 
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Didn't anyone else notice that when our economy took a hit so did Europe and Asia? How can anyone not see the markets are truly global now?

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Didn't anyone else notice that when our economy took a hit so did Europe and Asia? How can anyone not see the markets are truly global now?

That is only because, as Khross pointed out, we are a paper nation, with our currency linked to theirs through inter-connected central banks. If we had a commodity standard, their plight would would still touch us, but not in any way resembling the wave of starvation about to overtake us.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:23 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Didn't anyone else notice that when our economy took a hit so did Europe and Asia? How can anyone not see the markets are truly global now?

That is only because, as Khross pointed out, we are a paper nation, with our currency linked to theirs through inter-connected central banks. If we had a commodity standard, their plight would would still touch us, but not in any way resembling the wave of starvation about to overtake us.

This is something I haven't done a whole lot of research on and on the surface, I'm skeptical of. As I understand it, we don't really have enough gold to base our currency on it. What other commodities are you proposing we base it on? Or would there be multiple forms of currency backed by different commodities?

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There was a great deal of international economic contagion during the Great Depression, Rynar, and the severity of the hit a country took was pretty strongly correlated with how long it insisted on staying on the gold standard.


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RangerDave wrote:
There was a great deal of international economic contagion during the Great Depression, Rynar, and the severity of the hit a country took was pretty strongly correlated with how long it insisted on staying on the gold standard.
Wow ... just wow ... That's it. You are NEVER allowed to post on Economic matters again. Ever. At all ... ever ...

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:28 pm 
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A mixed basket of commodities set at ratio exchanges instead of dollar exchanges.

For example the average ratio of price of silver to gold is 16:1. We could use silver, copper, gold, palladium, platinum, rhodium, nickle, tungsten, titanium, and on and on to create a base of durable commodities to base the currency on. Hell if we get enough energy production we could include Kwh.

And thats a very Friedmanesque view RD. The problem there was that we didn't have much minted currency, it was still mostly paper and ledger and we had a set trade rate which didn't reflect the panic. All of those were issues that were caused by governmental interference by ignoring the Constitutional requirement for all money to be minted in gold and silver.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Wow ... just wow ... That's it. You are NEVER allowed to post on Economic matters again. Ever. At all ... ever ...


Uh huh. Because my view of this is the one that's fringe...


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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:38 pm 
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Uh oh, now you've done it RD. :)

I dont know that I buy the domino thing Khross. If the worst of the Euros are left mostly to their own devices I dont know that it's enough pressure to knock down the next domino.

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PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2010 2:40 pm 
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If we pegged a currency to a commodity (or basket of them) how would you control price fluctuations? Gold has taken a ridiculous run up lately (although I personally think its "value" has remained flat but the devaluation of the dollar has accounted for the "increase", same with oil).

Um... wtf was I saying?

Yes. So we peg currencies to Silver & Gold and tomorrow we discover we can convert water to hydrogen and oxygen by passing it through a gold screen that fairies sprinkled with silver dust. There is then naturally a huge industrial rush to buy up gold and silver.

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