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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:23 pm 
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You've got to laugh, Bernanke's response made me lol.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:35 pm 
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I don't see the funny. seems simple and straitforward enough to me. It's not Ben's job to do the policy just the math.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:05 am 
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I agree, but it was funny how he was asked "Is there enough spending to be cut" and Bernanke was like... "of course... DUH!"

What a retarded question. It shows what the Congressman's perspective is on the budget if he cant fathom that obviously there is enough spending to be cut.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:28 am 
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Yeah true. I like him. He just has the unenviable task of trying to hold onto the purse strings in a den of thieves. Then his masters who send him into the den (many of whom are thieves themself chastise him for the job he does.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:25 pm 
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That's hilarious. Only an inept politician can turn a gotcha question on themselves.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:58 pm 
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There is a no answer.

If you cut 100% of the spending and do not raise taxes, and yet you still cannot make the interest on the nut, then no, there is not enough spending to be cut.

Hopefully we never find that out in the real world.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
Yeah true. I like him. He just has the unenviable task of trying to hold onto the purse strings in a den of thieves. Then his masters who send him into the den (many of whom are thieves themself chastise him for the job he does.


You... you don't think Bernanke is a member of the "den of thieves?"

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:39 pm 
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To an extent yes, but at least he seems to be thinking. It seems he's starting to relise the pit has a bottom.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:17 am 
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Bernanke is a fool and a dangerous one at that; I wouldn't be giving him any credit whatsoever.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:29 am 
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I'm not saying Bernanke is wonderful, but come on, that come back was funny. I insist you give him credit Khross!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:37 am 
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Well, ok ... maybe ... perhaps, I can give some credit where credit is due: Bernanke's at least 10% of the reason ****'s so **** up right now.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:58 am 
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What are you talking about? Obama and Bernanke saved the economy!

Quote:
By ALAN S. BLINDER

Those of us who don't live in caves are constantly bombarded with poll results—on just about every subject. But a recent Pew/National Journal poll cut through the cacophony and caught my eye nonetheless.

It seems that more Americans believe that "Barack Obama's economic policies" (the pollsters' exact words) have made economic conditions worse (29%) than better (23%), and another 35% of Americans think his policies have "not had an effect so far." So only 23% of the public thinks the president's policies have helped while 64% thinks they have failed. Low marks indeed.

The 64% are wrong. You can certainly argue that the administration has not done enough, or that other policy choices would have been better. And I'm certainly not arguing that Washington got everything right. But to say that the president's policies either had no effect or were harmful flies in the face of both logic and fact.

Let's start with two indisputable facts. First, both the financial system and the economy are in far better shape today than they were in the dark days of January or February 2009. For example, even though unemployment is higher now, it is receding rather than soaring, dropping to 9.7% in May from 9.9% in April. Second, the growth of the U.S. economy over, say, the last 12-18 months beat virtually every forecast made back then. I know, because I stuck my neck out on this page with a forecast viewed as too optimistic in July 2009, and the U.S. economy did better than I predicted.

Of course, that does not prove that the president's policies caused the unexpected improvement. Maybe our luck just turned, and the economy would have done even better under a laissez-faire approach. (A few diehards still argue that FDR's policies worsened the Great Depression!) Or maybe poll respondents give the credit to Congress or the Federal Reserve instead. (Do you believe that?)

While it's certainly too early for historical perspective on the stunning events of 2007-2009, I venture to guess that, when the history of the period is written, it will read something like this: For a host of reasons the U.S. economy was struck by a calamitous financial crisis followed by a vicious recession. The government—including two administrations, Congress, and the Fed—marshaled enormous resources to save the financial system and to fight the recession. It worked.

Specifically, I would point to three policy landmarks, two of which were and remain terribly unpopular—and which probably account for the negative polling results.

The first was the much-maligned Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP), which Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke and then-Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson persuaded Congress to pass on Oct. 3, 2008. TARP must be among the most reviled and misunderstood programs in the history of the republic. Voters are clearly appalled by the idea that their government spent $700 billion bailing out banks.

The only problem is: It didn't. Even if we count insurance giant AIG as a bank, no more than $300 billion ever went to banks. TARP's total disbursements, including the auto bailout, never reached the $400 billion mark. The money went for loans and to purchase preferred stock; it was not "spent." In fact, most of it has already been paid back—with interest and capital gains. When TARP's books are eventually closed, the net cost to the taxpayer will probably be under $100 billion—far under if General Motors ever repays.

Spending perhaps $50 billion of taxpayer money to forestall a financial cataclysm seems like a bargain. Yes, I know it's maddening to hand over even a nickel to bankers who don't deserve it. But doing so was a necessary evil to save the economy. Think of it as collateral damage in a successful war against financial armageddon.

The second landmark was the fiscal stimulus package that President Obama signed into law about four weeks into his presidency. Originally priced at $787 billion, it was later re-estimated by the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) to cost $862 billion. A huge waste of money, say the critics—even though most independent appraisals, including that of the CBO, credit the stimulus with saving or creating two million to three million new jobs.

Why the bad reputation? The main reason appears to be that the White House's January 2009 forecast was too optimistic—projecting, for example, an unemployment rate around 8% by the end of 2009 if the stimulus passed. (It was actually 10%.) Notice the reasoning here: Since unemployment turned out worse than expected, the stimulus must have failed. Did someone say non sequitur? Let's see. If the Yankees lose a game 13-11, as they did one day last month, the hitters must have failed. Right?

Try to imagine any government spending a massive sum like $862 billion without creating or saving millions of jobs. More specifically, suppose peak-year spending from the stimulus bill was about $300 billion—which is roughly correct—and that our hapless government just sprinkled its purchases around at random. On average, each job in our economy accounts for about $100,000 worth of GDP. (We are a highly productive bunch!) So $300 billion worth of additional GDP should be the product of about three million more jobs. Do we really believe the stimulus produced only a small fraction of that—or none at all?

I come, finally, to the third major landmark: the "stress tests" of 19 big financial institutions (not all of which were banks) conducted by the Federal Reserve and other banking agencies in the spring of 2009. This unheralded but ingenious policy initiative was a riverboat gamble that paid off big.

When the stress tests were announced in February 2009, hardly anyone in the financial markets trusted anyone else—least of all the banks. The nervous markets might have panicked if the Fed had declared the need for bank capital to be either too large ("My God! It's hopeless!") or too small ("My God! It's a government whitewash!"). Instead, the Fed's careful and credible estimates found capital needs that were both realistic and manageable.

And it made the information public, which was crucial. During a panic, people tend to assume the worst—especially when they can't see what's hidden behind the screen. If you show them the truth, they may relax a bit (as long as the truth is not too horrific). And they did. From that point on, the financial markets started to heal.

So the next time you see Chairman Bernanke, congratulate him for threading the needle. And the next time you see members of the House and Senate who voted for TARP and the stimulus package, give them a hug and say thank you for taking two monumentally tough votes that helped keep us from falling into the abyss.

Mr. Blinder, a professor of economics and public affairs at Princeton University and vice chairman of the Promontory Interfinancial Network, is a former vice chairman of the Federal Reserve Board.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:43 am 
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Blinder is an idiot.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:56 am 
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Absolutely.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:47 pm 
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I still believe the original bailout was necessary. There was way too much money spent after that, but you can't let a company like AIG fail. You want to tell people that have been paying into, say, life insurance for 20 years that they wasted it all, there's no more benefit? Or tell the guy that just got into a major accident that since AIG is bankrupt, his liability insurance won't pay up and now he has to pay the $500,000 in damages assessed against him? Damages he can't even escape via bankruptcy, and will have his wages garnished for the rest of his life?

People buy insurance for peace of mind. You take that peace of mind away by making everyone afraid that their insurance carrier could be broke when they get into ****, and people will stop buying insurance, and then every big insurance company dies right along with AIG, along with the economy.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:37 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
...you can't let a company like AIG fail...
Yes, in fact, you can. All of your arguments against letting AIG collapse can be translated as this: "People should not have to assume the risk of their investments." Well, you know what, THAT'S **** STUPID.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
...you can't let a company like AIG fail...
Yes, in fact, you can. All of your arguments against letting AIG collapse can be translated as this: "People should not have to assume the risk of their investments." Well, you know what, THAT'S **** STUPID.


Insurance is not an investment. At least the average person doesn't see it as such. People buy insurance to eliminate risk. If insurance companies can fail, then buying insurance doesn't eliminate risk and the average person doesn't want it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:46 pm 
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Xequecal wrote:
Insurance is not an investment. At least the average person doesn't see it as such. People buy insurance to eliminate risk. If insurance companies can fail, then buying insurance doesn't eliminate risk and the average person doesn't want it.


Any time you choose to spend your money it is a risk. Just because you choose to put your money into a company does not entitle you to any protections. Sad truth... you cannot have both free market and government controlled market. If you have a government controlled market: You end up with the **** we have now, or the **** which was the USSR as it collapsed.

You have a free market: You must accept that risk is a part of making money. You could lose it all.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 9:59 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Insurance is not an investment. At least the average person doesn't see it as such. People buy insurance to eliminate risk. If insurance companies can fail, then buying insurance doesn't eliminate risk and the average person doesn't want it.


Any time you choose to spend your money it is a risk. Just because you choose to put your money into a company does not entitle you to any protections. Sad truth... you cannot have both free market and government controlled market. If you have a government controlled market: You end up with the **** we have now, or the **** which was the USSR as it collapsed.

You have a free market: You must accept that risk is a part of making money. You could lose it all.


Buying insurance is already a negative expected value. The insurance company has to make its profit, after all. The only time it isn't is if you know substantially more about the risk than the insurance company does, and when you do we call that a "moral hazard" and decry it more than we do bailouts. People are willing to buy this "bad investment" and pay extra because of the peace of mind associated with removing the risk. If it doesn't actually remove the risk, why buy insurance?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:40 am 
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Xequecal wrote:
People buy insurance to eliminate risk.


Which, as Khross said, is "**** STUPID."

You don't purchase insurance to eliminate risk. You purchase insurance to spread risk.

That's it. Period.

If you [proverbial you, not you Xeq] don't understand that, you deserve to lose your money.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:49 am 
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One buys insurance to moderate the consequences of risk (the mechanism is by spreading it but people don't care how it is moderated).

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:41 am 
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DFK! wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
People buy insurance to eliminate risk.


Which, as Khross said, is "**** STUPID."

You don't purchase insurance to eliminate risk. You purchase insurance to spread risk.

That's it. Period.

If you [proverbial you, not you Xeq] don't understand that, you deserve to lose your money.


Spreading risk is how insurance works, but you (proverbial you again) don't buy insurance to spread risk. You pay whatever they ask you and in return you have the expectation that should the insured event happen, you won't have to pay for it. You don't care how they come up with the money or how they run their business, all you care about is that they pay you if **** happens. If you cannot be confident that insurance will pay, why are you buying it? It's already a net negative if you assume they pay 100% of the time. It's a completely worthless service if you can't rely on it.

Furthermore, once an insurance company becomes insolvent, the risk is no longer spread. It's all on you, and you might not even know it until it's far too late because they have no obligation to open their books or disclose anything to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:05 am 
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The problem I see with your argument X is that your approach to what insurance provides is incorrect, and stems from a socialist concept.

Ignoring whole insurance policies for the moment, your monthly/quarterly/annual insurance payment is only mitigating the risk of whatever event you are insured against for the course of the next payment schedule.

The money you pay provides a backstop for some period of time against some event. You decide to purchase insurance based upon your tolerance for the risk of that event happening over some given period of time and weigh that against the cost of paying for the risk mitigation, just as the company offering the insurance makes a calculation on the risk/reward of that event happening compared to the money collected to pay for that event.

The problem I see is that most people consider insurance to be a life long commitment between yourself and some company, when in reality, its a short term contract (ignoring most life insurance plans) more akin to your lease than your mortgage (whole life plans would be the mortgage plan).

If you deem that the cost of the insurance is too high, you can choose not to purchase it, but the prudent person is going to make other arrangements, such as saving the "premium" money that would have been paid in an account to pay for the emergency event... the risk of course is if the event happens prior to having saved enough money to pay for it, the reward is saving money over the long term.

Its no different in concept than buying a car... you can opt to purchase the car and make payments to the bank, or you can opt to make payments to yourself and buy the car outright later.

Is the company going out of business fundamentally any different than the company just deciding to not sell insurance anymore, or not serve policies in that area any longer? Are you going to compel a company to do business?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:09 am 
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I really don't see insurance as a lifelong commitment either. But when you buy a yearlong insurance contract, you expect to be covered for that year. If insurance companies can fail with no safety net, you might not be covered for the whole year, hell you might not be covered at all if the insurance company is already in financial trouble when you buy the insurance. What's more is you'll never know if they are in trouble because they're not obligated to disclose anything to you. You could just one day have to put in a valid claim and hear back, "sorry, we have no money." We regard insurance as important enough that we have laws requiring people to buy car insurance to drive, home insurance to get mortgages, and now you are required to buy health insurance too. If you want to rent, you have to buy insurance too, very few rental complexes will rent to you without it anymore. It's very much about eliminating risk for the end user.

The real issue is the entire insurance industry depends on giving people peace of mind. If they can't provide that, there's no reason to buy it as it's already a loss. If there's no guarantee, I'm not going to buy insurance. This is especially bad when we're talking about "catastrophic" insurance coverage like high-deductible health plans and liability insurance. If insurance companies can fail, you're paying a lot of money and not even eliminating your very low-probability risk, you're just replacing it with another very low-probability risk. Why would I buy this? I'll put the premium towards that event instead and if it happens too early I'll take out a loan to cover the cost. The interest I pay on that loan isn't going to be much higher than the insurance company's profit margin plus the risk that they could go bankrupt.

Banks and federal bank insurance is the same thing. If my checking account can be randomly lost, why the hell would I ever open one? It doesn't pay you interest, they charge you fees for bloody everything, hell they actively structure your transactions to try and cause as many penalty fees as possible. It's already costing me a lot of money just for basically convenience. I'm not going to bother with that if I have to risk losing all my money. I'll put the cash under my mattress and use the credit card to pay for everything, paying it off in cash every month. And when I put cash under my mattress, any money I save really does shrink the economy on a large scale, unlike saving money in a bank account which can then lend out ten times as much money as I stashed there via fractional reserve banking.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:54 am 
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If your insurance company folds... what have you lost? There's another one down the street.

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