The Glade 4.0

If I believe that all Ceaser is is the use of force then what is Matthew 22:15-22: telling me to do?

And let us be clear the words of the apostles are the words of man not the word of God through his son. I give them as much credence in Christianity (not Christ+Apostlenty) as I do any pastor or speaker on religion - its a point of view and nothing more.

Paul had very good psychological reasons to couch his previous behavior in terms that remove any culpability from himself.

Now you're free to discount that and free to judge the words of any and all apostles as equal in weight with the word of the Lord (even when they contradict each other) if you want to. I don't and I find the idea laughable.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Not trying to be argumentative, but you are carrying your own personal baggage into the conversation. Jesus was asked specifically and bluntly whether or not people should pay their taxes. His response was to pay them.

_________________

But he didn't just say that, he made a categorical statement. This means literally that you give to Ceasar what Ceaser brings to you. Ceaser brought war to Hannibal, Hannibal brought war to Ceaser.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Are we talking about the same scripture passage?

_________________

Yes I am. They asked a specific question and he gave a general answer. The fact that the answer applied to the question does not stop the answer from being one of a general nature.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Ummm, no...

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Um yes.

Exactly where is taxes mentiond as the only case to follow in this statement "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." ?

Nowhere. That is a statement its scope is "what is Caesar's" and "what is God's" there is no other limiter of scope. None. Nada.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Well you keep thinking that Sparky.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

How do you reconcile your position with your feelings about the current administration, Nitefox?

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I am a bit taken aback by your answer. Isn't that exactly what you said was the problem here?

_________________

Exactly how do you combine the fact that I don't weigh the words of men the same as the word of God and the fact that Jesus spoke in a general and not specific sense?

Oh and Nitefox - excellent rebuttal and I am glad you brought up so many salient points.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

You're welcome there muppet boy.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

Again, Nitefox, i'd like to know how you reconcile your position in this thread with your stated oposition to the Obama administration, and Democratic Congress. I'd also be interested to know if you've forgotten what forum you are posting in.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Jesus said: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

The rest of your statement is your interpretation of God's word, which you just railed against...

_________________

Nah, I shouldn't have gotten involved. Debating with Elmo is only slightly less frustrating than debating with Monty in my opinion. I was just taken aback by some of his opinions of biblical interpretation, not just the OP one. And I know what forum we are in and haven't even come close to breaking any rules.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

There isn't any interpretation. I simply asked if this holds true for one who believes the only thing Caesar has is force.

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I disagree. Calling someone "boy" indictates otherwise. That said, I still dont understand why you would feel it nessecary to brush up against the edge of the rules in your own interpretation. Knock it off, or give yourself a timeout.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Disagree all you want, I'll go it my own way thanks. If you want to get technical then you need to back off with the back seat modding. Don't get all riled up over nothing.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

nitefox/

Oh, i'm not moding, i'm giving constructive criticism to a boy who clearly needs it.

nitefox/

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

We've long called Elmarnieh "Elmo" the muppet and I always took it as a term of affection or at least Nickname. I'm usually the first one to call out Nitefox on stuff, but I dont see the foul here.

Must be some other boy then cause all I see is you getting into something you don't need too. All good though, have fun with it.

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

There we go, that's much better.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I view muppet as intending disrespect when termed with a statement of disrespect such as "boy", and a playful when termed with a statement of affection such as "playfull".

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Yes he is. Anything in the Bible must be taken in context of the entire rest of the Bible.

Furthermore, the requirements in this section do not apply to obeying a leader that is (in his leadership, not in his personal life; leaders can no more be perfect people than anyone else) not following God's law himself. Leaders are bound by the same commandments as anyone else. This passage is not a license for abuse.

As to whether it's giving "despotism the Grace of God", whether it is or not is irrelevant. That's just an appeal to consequences. God does not have to adhere to earthly political ideas, principles, or philosophy at all. Who are you to tell God he cannot endorse despoitism if He pleases? It all exists at His sufferance and because of Him in the first place.

As to whether the words of the Apostle are as important as the words of Christ - everything that is in the Bible is the Word of Christ because He is God. What history has allowed to enter into canon has been so because He has allowed it. It is absurd to think that God does not control His own Word. Yes, I'm aware of issues like the Apocrypha. Nothing in the disputed books between Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox is hugely important; and more importantly, we must trust God to do His job and be God. What He allows into His word he does for His reasons.

_________________
"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Except, the Bible doesn't say those things. That is simply how you choose to read it, as it supports your own ideology. You're no different from Elmo.

_________________

Ezekiel 23:19-20