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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:39 am 
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Ienan wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Ienan wrote:
And Aizle isn't describing correctly what a theory is.


I'm curious where you feel that I'm being incorrect.

Fair enough. Let's look at your post.

Aizle wrote:
And really, it comes down to the scientific method. There are no "facts" in science the old saying goes. So while I believe that HIGW exists, and believe that most of the science points to it, it's still at the end of the day our best understanding of the situation, based on imperfect data.

I think that might be some of the confusion. Monty's rabid commentary aside, it's usually assumed when talking about any scientific conclusions that they are all theories. Hell, even tho gravity is very accepted and taken for granted, it is still a theory.

Your description of a theory is a really a hypothesis. A scientific conclusion is just one of many steps in the scientific process. A theory is an observable phenomenon that has a large body of evidence that supports said hypothesis and rejects many of the alternate hypotheses. A key element of a theory is the reproduction of experimental data using a highly related (preferably the same) procedure, which is a significant flaw in HIGCC. Since HIGCC data uses sophsicated computer models that predict (which is a major flaw since using predictive models require assumptions), it's nearly impossible to reproduce results. It's also difficult to reproduce temperature results since the variability (an element to avoid in scientific research) is great. Another great flaw of HIGCC is that it's difficult to observe. You can certainly observe climate change, but concluding it's due to humans would require more evidence that's hard to obtain due to the number of variables in an open environment, such as the Earth.

Gravitation is a theory, but the force of gravity is not. Gravity exists. It could cease to exist tomorrow or it may be a combination of other forces as we may find later. Both theories and laws embody gravitation. By the way, just because something is a theory doesn't make it any less true than a scientific law. A scientific law is just a way to describe a mechanism, generally through mathematical principles but it could also be verbal, that must apply under the same conditions everytime. Also, instead of using deductive reasoning as you do with theories, laws require inductive reasoning, which is why they're often backed by mathematical proofs. Laws can be disproven as well and indeed they have been or limited to certain conditions only. For instance, many of Newton's Laws have been limited to certain conditions, such as low gravitation, at low velocities, etc.


I think I just wasn't as clear in my post as I should have been. I don't actually describe what a theory is other than to call what we define as gravity as a theory. What I meant by that is that while the observable effects of "gravity" are there and very repeatable, our definition of "gravity" is a theory. i.e. this is how we think it works, etc. As you point out, we may figure out tomorrow that our understanding of gravity is flawed, or comprised of other things. Much like Newton's Laws have been refined and found to be incomplete or only true within certain circumstances.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:03 pm 
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Heh. Even the simple, venerated Newtonian theory of gravity has obvious issues, at least in it's application -- the n-body problem being a prime example.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Stathol wrote:
Heh. Even the simple, venerated Newtonian theory of gravity has obvious issues, at least in it's application -- the n-body problem being a prime example.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:33 pm 
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XKCD rocks.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:18 pm 
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Speaking of peer review:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/29/yamal_scandal/

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Ienan wrote:
For instance, many of Newton's Laws have been limited to certain conditions, such as low gravitation, at low velocities, etc.
Newton's laws are the first term in the Taylor series expansion of the same laws as acquired through derivations that take into account quantum effects.

As for the N-body problem, Newton's laws fail there because Newton's laws were all experimentally derived in a three-dimensional co-ordinate space. Newton's laws famously don't work in two dimensions because any force is, at a certain distance, divided among the total surface area of the space at that particular distance. As a result, the r^2 terms that generally appear on the denominator of any force equation have to be replaced with r for a two dimensional system.

However, it's worth pointing out that, as the current time, we still don't have a "real space" that extends into any dimensions above or below three.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:08 pm 
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http://cei.org/news-release/2009/10/05/ ... imate-data

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:26 pm 
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That would be nice. I bet that would put a stop to Cap'N'Tax.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:01 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
However, it's worth pointing out that, as the current time, we still don't have a "real space" that extends into any dimensions above or below three.


Maybe the human brain is only intelligent enough to create a 3d macroscopic model... as well as understanding the progression of time.

A non-3d model of reality would allow you to "see" around corners that 3d-focused people cannot see around.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:06 pm 
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Interestingly... a strong concept of time and rationalizing your memory does let you make predictions about what is around corners... it seems the more experienced and intelligent you are, the more you can see past 3d obstructions through prediction. I wonder what the extreme of this would be.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:12 pm 
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It seems the more intelligent and experienced you are, the more you live in 4d land and not 3d land... at the extreme you are omniscient and can move forward and back in time at your whim, know where everything is located, and know everything that has happened and will happen. Everyone lives somewhere between 3d land and 4d land. Your memory and your future predictions can make time a more solid dimension.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:14 am 
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Monte wrote:
Aizle wrote:

I think that might be some of the confusion. Monty's rabid commentary aside, it's usually assumed when talking about any scientific conclusions that they are all theories. Hell, even tho gravity is very accepted and taken for granted, it is still a theory.



There is nothing "rabid" what so ever about my commentary, and I am insulted at the implication that it might be. Every major scientific organization *on the planet* stands behind my position. Every single one of them. Every objection to that science has been either debunked, or has been shown to be motivated and funded by parties with a vested interest in avoiding regulation. Something being a Theory does not mean it's not a reality. Pick up your pen and drop it 1000 times. Tell me that gravity does not affect the pen. A theory is the best understanding of the subject at hand we currently have.

The case for HIGCC has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We take the lives of our citizens based on less compelling evidence than what exists for global warming. We go to war and take tens of thousands of lives based on less compelling evidence than what exists to support HIGCC. People on this board believe in dieties and support legislation based on the teachings of said diety with *significantly* less evidence than what supports global warming. People on this board take absolute faith in an economic theory that has never actually even been tested in the real world than in HIGCC. It's preposterous.

If you are looking for rabidity, you need look no further than the people that ignore the overwhelming consensus in favor of the unsupported nipping at the margins from people with a vested, financial interest in the status quo.

This post has been reported for containing a flame on multiple board posters. This is essentially a well-poison argument.

Please direct any arguments you may have over the issue at hand at specific posters, preferably in a non-flame manner.

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