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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:08 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Really? So, this has come to a vote at some point?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:55 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Monte wrote:
I've always understood that clause to essentially mean that international treaties are equal in weight to constitutional law.


They can't be. That would mean that the Federal government could amend the Constitution by making a treaty.


*headscratch*

No it doesn't. It means that when our government signs a treaty, it binds us to the law it signed at a very high level. I don't see anything wrong with that, given that treaties require congressional approval.


Don't move the goalposts. Obviously it is at a "very high level". That level, however, is not as high as the Constitution itself.

Ammendments are something that the Senate (the House does not vote on treaties, so it really is not "Congressional" approval, but I know what you meant) cannot approve. The House of Representatives can propose ammendments, but only the states, the ratifying authorities of the Constitution itself, can ammend it.

In fact, one would think you would be against the idea tht treaties are even as high as Federal law given that they only require one House to approve but other laws require both of them.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:00 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Monte:

Can a Treaty entered into by the United States legally accomplish something which is otherwise unConstitutional, such as limit US sovereignty?


What portion of the constitution states that congress shall do nothing to limit US soverignty? Subjecting ourselves to international law is not, to my knowledge, specifically limited by the constitution.

(And please, please please don't interpret this question as a position in favor of some sort of crazed UN government conspiracy)


This one:

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:02 pm 
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Except that it says exactly that in the constitution. It's the supreme law of the land.

DFK - There are a lot of people who believe a lot of wacky **** about the United Nations. There are people, theoretically serious conservative thinkers, who believe that Obama is engaged in a conspiracy to elminate our borders and come into some sort of single-economy deal with Canada and Mexico. There's a lot of nut job crap out there that leads people to believe there's some big conspiracy to let the UN tax our citizens. This sounds like that sort of clap trap.

If it's come up for a vote, then I think we can safely say it's on the table. However, I don't think anyone would believe that we would vote in favor of such an action in the UN. Maybe folks would, but then again, a lot of folks think we don't have anything to do with global warming, and that the President isn't a citizen.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Really? So, this has come to a vote at some point?

Your question was if the topic was on the table, and it certainly is as far as the UN, the various agencies and some country governments are concerned. As far as I know, none of various proposals or concepts have made it to paper yet for there to be a vote... well, there was the Global Poverty Act that didn't make it to the Senate and died. This was part of the UN's Milliennium Development Plan.

of course, if you were interested, there are other topics/agencies you could research on your own, such as the world bank's plan to impose a global tax on banking systems, etc.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Monte wrote:
Except that it says exactly that in the constitution. It's the supreme law of the land.

DFK - There are a lot of people who believe a lot of wacky **** about the United Nations. There are people, theoretically serious conservative thinkers, who believe that Obama is engaged in a conspiracy to elminate our borders and come into some sort of single-economy deal with Canada and Mexico. There's a lot of nut job crap out there that leads people to believe there's some big conspiracy to let the UN tax our citizens. This sounds like that sort of clap trap.

If it's come up for a vote, then I think we can safely say it's on the table. However, I don't think anyone would believe that we would vote in favor of such an action in the UN. Maybe folks would, but then again, a lot of folks think we don't have anything to do with global warming, and that the President isn't a citizen.


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By changing the goalposts, and then discussing my pointing out that you've changed the goalposts, you've still manage to wholly evade Rynar's original question.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:14 am 
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Monte wrote:
Except that it says exactly that in the constitution. It's the supreme law of the land.


Yes. It says that three things are the Supreme Law of the Land - the Constitution, Treaties, and Federal laws passed by Congress. In other words, they are supreme above all other laws - State law, common law history, and any other sort of law

However, it also indicates that the Constitution itself must be supreme among those three. It has to be, otherwise how could it establish those three as Supreme?

If it were not, the PResident could sign a treaty by which we would agree to be no longer governed by the Constitution, but then, how would that treaty have any force as law, since it is the Constitution that makes it law?

Similarly, Congress could pass a law abrogating the entire Constitution, and there would be no way to find it unConstitutional.. except that how would that law have any force, since it is the Constitution that grants it power as the supreme law of the land.

Treaties are subordinate to the Constitution, period, or they are not treaties, since the President that signed them and the Senate that ratified them get the power to do so from the Constitution.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:15 am 
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Rodahn wrote:
War! Huh! War! What's it good for?


Unfortunately, a lot. War has solved a great many disputes.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:31 am 
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Wars not make one great.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:37 am 
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Monte wrote:
Wars not make one great.

-Yoda


Yoda was a hypocrite. Also, fiction.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:37 am 
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DFK! wrote:

Remember!
When you don't want to answer a question about a theoretical scenario, move the goalposts of the discussion to only discuss practical or historical scenarios.


Hypothetical for you -

Lets say aliens came down from the sky and proved to you beyond all doubt that they were from the future. And in that future, they showed you that not only did Libertarianism lead to the downfall of mankind and brutal fascism, but also the eventual devastation of the environment and the destruction of the human race.

Would you still support libertarianism?

Some hypotheticals are just stupid. Like this one. The checks and balances in place to this sort of treaty ensure that something along those lines would require massive public and international support to see the light of day. How would I feel about it? I don't honestly know.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:45 am 
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Monte wrote:
DFK! wrote:

Remember!
When you don't want to answer a question about a theoretical scenario, move the goalposts of the discussion to only discuss practical or historical scenarios.


Hypothetical for you -

Lets say aliens came down from the sky and proved to you beyond all doubt that they were from the future. And in that future, they showed you that not only did Libertarianism lead to the downfall of mankind and brutal fascism, but also the eventual devastation of the environment and the destruction of the human race.

Would you still support libertarianism?

Some hypotheticals are just stupid. Like this one. The checks and balances in place to this sort of treaty ensure that something along those lines would require massive public and international support to see the light of day. How would I feel about it? I don't honestly know.

Time-travelling aliens? Couldn't they just be time-travellers? You're stretching here.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:54 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Time-travelling aliens? Couldn't they just be time-travellers? You're stretching here.


How would human time travelers be able to warn you of the destruction of the human race?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:59 am 
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Obviously they were cryogenically frozen through the incident. Come on, try to keep up, here.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:00 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
Obviously they were cryogenically frozen through the incident. Come on, try to keep up, here.


That's proposterous. There's no way you could cryogenically freeze people. Now your just talking nonsense.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:41 pm 
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It is only logical that they must have time traveled from the past to a future where there is no human race, saw the obvious signs of a Libertarian-led mass extinction, and then came back to our time to save us from our ill-advised resistance to the collective.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:43 pm 
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I should have just said "Canadians"

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:45 pm 
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Then we must invade Canada to get their time-travel device. For the children!

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:47 pm 
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If we have to invade Canada, probably a good thing we spent all that money on the military instead of education.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:48 pm 
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The only problem is you can't go from the past to the future. The waveforms haven't collapsed to allow there to be "a future", and a time travel device would require a time analysis device merely to choose among the various potentials. The time analysis device would have to be so sophisticated that it would be far beyond even the most wild theoreticizing about AIs, and would thus, as a first step, annihilate humans to make its own job easier.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 1:16 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
The only problem is you can't go from the past to the future. The waveforms haven't collapsed to allow there to be "a future", and a time travel device would require a time analysis device merely to choose among the various potentials. The time analysis device would have to be so sophisticated that it would be far beyond even the most wild theoreticizing about AIs, and would thus, as a first step, annihilate humans to make its own job easier.

Alternatively you could simply step into a bubble universe that has already aged sufficiently.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
If we have to invade Canada, probably a good thing we spent all that money on the military instead of education.


"How do you guys like your fancy-pants public education program and small military now? If you guys were so smart, you should have seen this coming."


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:28 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Alternatively you could simply step into a bubble universe that has already aged sufficiently.

That still puts you in a separate eigenstate and doesn't solve anything.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Monte:

I'll play. Yes, I would, if it could be proven by the time-traveling aliens that I had been wrong.

Now, answer the hypothetical.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Then please provide more context. What is going on in the world that has caused the UN to try and pass a tax on it's member nations? Does the UN have the power to do so in it's charter? What are the conditions in the United States, and what are the various pros and cons for the tax in question?

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