The Glade 4.0

None of that matters in the context of this conversation. We are discussing the sovereignty of the United States.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I'm don't thinkthat word means what you think it means.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Damn you and your science!

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Holy crap. How ideologically stubborn and/or sociopathic do you have to be to engage in something you know will destroy mankind???

I think I misread Monte's statement. When I said "Yes, I would," I meant that I would recant my former position regarding libertarianism.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Oh, ok. Whew. Cuz damn....

All of that matters for the context of this conversation.

At the most basic level, there is nothing in the Constitution to prevent congress from passing a tax, and then spending that on whatever they want, including some sort of international fund. But that's not really a reduction of our sovereignty. There is nothing in the constitution that restricts the government from reducing our Sovereignty, but I can't really think of a set of circumstances where that could be an issue.

Then again, as I think about it, we do that all the time. Any time we make a deal with a nation regarding responses to aggression, we are reducing our sovereignty. Then again, we are not obligated to keep to our treaties, and can back out of them any time. So really, in the end, I don't see it as a possibility in practice.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

We arn't discussing congress laying a tax, we are discussing a foriegn entity laying a tax,

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

In order for us to accept a tax from a foreign entity, we would have to first enter into a treaty with that entity. That would require a great deal of work, as it necessitates congressional approval. So, on the far off chance that the congress approves it, I don't see how that's somehow a sacrifice of our sovereignty, especially since we can simply break the treaty whenever the hell we want to.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Using this same logic the war in Iraq was entered into perfectly legitimatly, as was Viet Nam for that matter.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

Please don't confuse what we *can* do with what is legitimate for us to do. For example, we could enter into that treaty, and then back out of it. We, morally, should not back out of it. But that was not the question posed. You posed a question about Sovereignty, and I showed how we would not actually lose our sovereignty, in practice.

By the way, we never unsigned the UN Treaty before invading Iraq. It was still illegal, we just didn't care.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No, you did not demonstrate any such thing. Law made, and taxes laid: that is what defines national sovereignty. If we do not have absolute control over those things on a national level, then we aren't sovereign. Furthermore, if you believe it is legitimate for those things to take place, then you have admitted to holding a belief that the Constitution can be amended by international treaty.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

So, if you were going to maintain you narrow definition, why did you even bother with the question? Our Sovereignty allows us to enter into a treaty with another nation that allows it to tax us. Our sovereignty also allows us to tell them to **** off. If we were *incapable* of agreeing to this, our sovereignty would be limited. Now, if there was a specific constitutional restriction on the government regarding this, it's a whole different question. But near as I can tell, there isn't.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Either there is international law, and the War in Iraq was illegal; or there is no international law and you are right. Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

There *is* international law. Law that we are a part of. Just because we ignored it doesn't make it not so.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Again, which is it?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

What do you mean, which is it? I don't understand what you're driving at. Yes, there is international law. And yes, the invasion of Iraq violated that law. I've already said that.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Actually, it was illegal for the U.N. to try to stop us. They'd already passed a resolution allowing it.

There's no moral reason, in any case, to not back out of treaties. We should stay in them or not as benefits our national interest. Our government's moral obligation is to us, not the rest of the world.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Are your ideological blinders throwing some sort of block into your selective memory?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

I just answered your question. What is your deal?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

So there is international law, and you are wrong?

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

What???

I've never said that international law doesn't exist. Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Really? You can't follow my logic in this thread? You are so far beyond FAIL in this thread that I'm not sure where you get off insulting anyone's intellect.

Again, the question I posed was two faceted, and you only answered half, and I have to believe it was deliberate, because it would bother me if you were really that stupid, so I won't let myself believe it. Stop pussyfooting around, and answer the question as you know it was asked. Thank you.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20