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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:38 am 
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They start off by saying this might "come as a bit of a surprise" but does it? Certainly not for skeptics such as myself who have been reading about this for years now in the wake of the popularization and politicizing of the issue.

Like most of these types of arguments, the truth is somewhere between the two extremes and it's sometimes difficult to separate the actual science from the bullshit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8299079.stm

Quote:
What happened to global warming?

By Paul Hudson
Climate correspondent, BBC News

This headline may come as a bit of a surprise, so too might that fact that the warmest year recorded globally was not in 2008 or 2007, but in 1998.

But it is true. For the last 11 years we have not observed any increase in global temperatures.

And our climate models did not forecast it, even though man-made carbon dioxide, the gas thought to be responsible for warming our planet, has continued to rise.

So what on Earth is going on?

Climate change sceptics, who passionately and consistently argue that man's influence on our climate is overstated, say they saw it coming.

They argue that there are natural cycles, over which we have no control, that dictate how warm the planet is. But what is the evidence for this?

During the last few decades of the 20th Century, our planet did warm quickly.

Sceptics argue that the warming we observed was down to the energy from the Sun increasing. After all 98% of the Earth's warmth comes from the Sun.

But research conducted two years ago, and published by the Royal Society, seemed to rule out solar influences.

The scientists' main approach was simple: to look at solar output and cosmic ray intensity over the last 30-40 years, and compare those trends with the graph for global average surface temperature.

And the results were clear. "Warming in the last 20 to 40 years can't have been caused by solar activity," said Dr Piers Forster from Leeds University, a leading contributor to this year's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

But one solar scientist Piers Corbyn from Weatheraction, a company specialising in long range weather forecasting, disagrees.

He claims that solar charged particles impact us far more than is currently accepted, so much so he says that they are almost entirely responsible for what happens to global temperatures.

He is so excited by what he has discovered that he plans to tell the international scientific community at a conference in London at the end of the month.

If proved correct, this could revolutionise the whole subject.

Ocean cycles

What is really interesting at the moment is what is happening to our oceans. They are the Earth's great heat stores.

According to research conducted by Professor Don Easterbrook from Western Washington University last November, the oceans and global temperatures are correlated.

The oceans, he says, have a cycle in which they warm and cool cyclically. The most important one is the Pacific decadal oscillation (PDO).

For much of the 1980s and 1990s, it was in a positive cycle, that means warmer than average. And observations have revealed that global temperatures were warm too.

But in the last few years it has been losing its warmth and has recently started to cool down.

These cycles in the past have lasted for nearly 30 years.

So could global temperatures follow? The global cooling from 1945 to 1977 coincided with one of these cold Pacific cycles.

Professor Easterbrook says: "The PDO cool mode has replaced the warm mode in the Pacific Ocean, virtually assuring us of about 30 years of global cooling."

So what does it all mean? Climate change sceptics argue that this is evidence that they have been right all along.

They say there are so many other natural causes for warming and cooling, that even if man is warming the planet, it is a small part compared with nature.

But those scientists who are equally passionate about man's influence on global warming argue that their science is solid.

The UK Met Office's Hadley Centre, responsible for future climate predictions, says it incorporates solar variation and ocean cycles into its climate models, and that they are nothing new.

In fact, the centre says they are just two of the whole host of known factors that influence global temperatures - all of which are accounted for by its models.

In addition, say Met Office scientists, temperatures have never increased in a straight line, and there will always be periods of slower warming, or even temporary cooling.

What is crucial, they say, is the long-term trend in global temperatures. And that, according to the Met office data, is clearly up.

To confuse the issue even further, last month Mojib Latif, a member of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) says that we may indeed be in a period of cooling worldwide temperatures that could last another 10-20 years.

Professor Latif is based at the Leibniz Institute of Marine Sciences at Kiel University in Germany and is one of the world's top climate modellers.

But he makes it clear that he has not become a sceptic; he believes that this cooling will be temporary, before the overwhelming force of man-made global warming reasserts itself.

So what can we expect in the next few years?

Both sides have very different forecasts. The Met Office says that warming is set to resume quickly and strongly.

It predicts that from 2010 to 2015 at least half the years will be hotter than the current hottest year on record (1998).

Sceptics disagree. They insist it is unlikely that temperatures will reach the dizzy heights of 1998 until 2030 at the earliest. It is possible, they say, that because of ocean and solar cycles a period of global cooling is more likely.

One thing is for sure. It seems the debate about what is causing global warming is far from over. Indeed some would say it is hotting up.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:19 am 
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Global warming = religion.

It's taken on faith and the preachings of the select few. Questioning their reasoning is hearasy. Their followers will punish that hearasy by any means at their disposal. Like other religious eras, it's a tool to control and influence the masses.

They are often wrong, but never in doubt. They are convinced.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:07 am 
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We have shown conclusively that we have direct control over the temperature in our fresh water systems and our local air temperature. These temperatures are cyclical also (seasonal), but the baseline has increased. So it makes sense intuitively that we can impact, to a smaller extent, global temperatures. What we need to determine is what our impact is, RELATIVE to the natural cycles. For example, we may be increasing the global temperature 2 degrees, but the natural cycle is minus 4 degrees. Net change = cooler by 2 degrees.

There's so much data and so many variables that it's going to be a long time before we really understand what's going on. In the meantime, I think we should watch measurable results such as the extent of sea ice and the footprint of glaciers.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:22 am 
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Arathain:

Intuition isn't a legitimate basis for far reaching government policy. State and local governments can, and probably should, work on correcting KNOWN man-made changes to environmental and climate health. Urban Heat Islands are destroying Colorado. Light pollution is seriously complicating wetland ecosystems in the South East, and that is on top of them dramatic consequences of draining large portions of those wet lands. No one's bothering to figure out the result of destroying the long-leaf pine forests for cheap lumber and rail road ties.

There are things human beings have done that we can correct, mitigate, repair. Screaming up and down about global climate change while ignoring the very real localized damage that cities, industries, and human behavior is causing is ... well, it's asinine. If the environmentalists want to save the planet, then may they should start saving communities first.

I'm all for learning to live more amicably with the planet, but carbon emissions? Greenhouse gases? Give me a break. Human Induced Global Climate Change is nothing more than a political taxation tool and bad science.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:30 am 
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Khross:

that goes back to the "one button fix" theory I've had about Obamas coronation. People don't want to work at the ground floor, they want to come in for the big win right away.

Same with this junk science. Selective samples, lost data, retroactive changing of models to fit new conclusions-

Climate change hegemony.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:53 am 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain:

Intuition isn't a legitimate basis for far reaching government policy. State and local governments can, and probably should, work on correcting KNOWN man-made changes to environmental and climate health. Urban Heat Islands are destroying Colorado. Light pollution is seriously complicating wetland ecosystems in the South East, and that is on top of them dramatic consequences of draining large portions of those wet lands. No one's bothering to figure out the result of destroying the long-leaf pine forests for cheap lumber and rail road ties.

There are things human beings have done that we can correct, mitigate, repair. Screaming up and down about global climate change while ignoring the very real localized damage that cities, industries, and human behavior is causing is ... well, it's asinine. If the environmentalists want to save the planet, then may they should start saving communities first.

I'm all for learning to live more amicably with the planet, but carbon emissions? Greenhouse gases? Give me a break. Human Induced Global Climate Change is nothing more than a political taxation tool and bad science.


Khross - Preaching to the choir, man. Hell, I'll go one step further and say that even if we did know conclusively that we were increasing the temp, we shouldn't be drastically changing policy until we know what A) the consequences are, and B) that we can even effectively do something to stop it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:13 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Arathain:

Intuition isn't a legitimate basis for far reaching government policy. State and local governments can, and probably should, work on correcting KNOWN man-made changes to environmental and climate health. Urban Heat Islands are destroying Colorado. Light pollution is seriously complicating wetland ecosystems in the South East, and that is on top of them dramatic consequences of draining large portions of those wet lands. No one's bothering to figure out the result of destroying the long-leaf pine forests for cheap lumber and rail road ties.

There are things human beings have done that we can correct, mitigate, repair. Screaming up and down about global climate change while ignoring the very real localized damage that cities, industries, and human behavior is causing is ... well, it's asinine. If the environmentalists want to save the planet, then may they should start saving communities first.

I'm all for learning to live more amicably with the planet, but carbon emissions? Greenhouse gases? Give me a break. Human Induced Global Climate Change is nothing more than a political taxation tool and bad science.


Spot on.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:23 pm 
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Considering I currently live under a man made hole which causes us to have the greatest skin cancer rate in the world, I do believe that we do damage the world with our polution.
However I also find the current studies on the subject grossly insufficient. I want to see some more money poured into the research and less on the marketing of a doomsday.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:32 pm 
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There are things we can do to be better stewards of creation. However I often feel that by in large the movement isn't about that, it's about a means of control. How can we slap on a bunch of regulations and have control over how people think and act? You can't force people to want to be better stewards.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:37 pm 
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at the very least its a subject of potential concern.

The consequences of being wrong are so severe, that ignoring the problem until all the data is in is perhaps not the best policy.

Its kinda like saying "Well, we think these cigarettes cause cancer, but you know, until we have conclusive proof, lets do nothing."


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:04 pm 
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Except that it's actually not at all like that. It's more like "Well, we think these cigarettes cause cancer, but it could also be the nitrogen in the air, and its even possible that if we stop smoking the problem could get worse". Even then the analogy doesn't work because not smoking is to a person's benefit from a purely economic standpoint, while changing the way we do buisness in general may or may not be economically beneficial.

Really, the cigarette analogy is very poor. We can observe hundreds or thousands of people who smoke and equal numbers who don't in order to draw conclusions. We don't have any such control group with planets.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:46 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
at the very least its a subject of potential concern.

The consequences of being wrong are so severe, that ignoring the problem until all the data is in is perhaps not the best policy.

Its kinda like saying "Well, we think these cigarettes cause cancer, but you know, until we have conclusive proof, lets do nothing."


Really? Because the consequence and the mechanics of generating them are something that anyone has been able to quantitatively define save for zealous and arbitrary cap taxations thresholds.

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