The Glade 4.0

Excellent documentary I saw recently from Frontline (about the only American video news outlet I put much faith in anymore) about for-profit colleges (amongst which is ITT tech).

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... einc/view/

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

My master's program was being pushed more and more online as I was taking it, so it's certainly being used for far more than general education now. I do concur they do suck when compared to normal classes. I got my MLS degree at a state school, and their online classes were, if memory serves, the only profitable area of the University... which would help explain its expanding use.

Depending on how the class is run, it can be doubly worse if you're someone like me that really needs a routine schedule. One of my classes was all over the place. It's my fault ultimately, since the Professor made every due date and such quite clear, but having no set pattern to when stuff was due was miserable. That was just one class, though, and another I had was pretty decent... but I am pretty sure if it was an in-person class it would've been one I loved, and instead I was mildly annoyed by it. Ah well.

Went back for another bachelor's now to try and get some career started and I haven't heard any word of online courses yet, which is a good sign. Unfortunately I'm going to have to take some time off to work since the government is going to stop giving me loans soon. It's likely for the better for me anyway. A year or two at a factory may build me some character or something.

As to the original post and the question of physics being required for a computer design course...

If you're running CAD software, there's a good chance you're modeling something that's going to move. Motion is the first topic that pops up in physics. CAD also deals with a lot of graphing. While that's a topic that pops up a lot in early algebra classes, most algebra students don't know beans about what to do with any of the math they've learned. They learn how to draw a line in an x-y plane. Then they forget everything, because lines in an x-y plane don't mean **** to them. In a physics class, you use all of that math to represent real things like kids playing tug-of-war or jumping off of a merry-go-round. CAD software requires you to do everything in some sort of coordinate system. It's actually physics, not math, where we trick you into learning how a coordinate system works.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

I was never much into math myself, but 10 years ago I switched from a community college IT program to DeVry's Computer Engineering program. I studied like hell for their math placement test and didn't gave to take a remedial algebra class. I liked the electronics classes, and my first trimester math went well too. But the second trimester math class had trigonometry in it, and I just couldn't wrap my head around it (working full time did not help). So I switched majors to Computer Information Systems, which offered the programming I wanted without as much math. But I found myself just not liking the programming like I had previously, and I was exhausted (40 hours of work plus 18 credit hours and then 40+ hours of my new EQ habit), so I dropped.

I've often wondered if I didn't have to work so much and could devote more time to the math if I could have mastered it and gotten the engineering degree. If the CAD really does interest you, start part-time at a community college and go for the math first. If you can get over that hump, then maybe CAD might be doable. I'd go community college over a private chain school...because your credits are much, much more transferrable if you want to go beyond an Associate's.

As to DeVry vs ITT...we laughed at ITT. My teachers were all pretty good...it was expensive, but I felt that the education was good enough for me to invest in the company. They just weren't teaching stuff I was suitable for.

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Women are from Hoboken, men are from Trenton. ~ Jimmy Kimmel

I'm a little late to this thread, but I would strongly recommend against ITT, though with the caveat that there are probably some decent individual schools/teachers out there, but their overall focus is poor and not on teaching the student, but on keeping in the class and paying tuition.

My personal experience only, but I was asked to teach the Arch. CAD II Class at the local ITT one semester as a favor to a friend....

1) This was supposed to the advanced Arch. drafting class where the students moved from using basic AutoCAD to using the AutoCAD Architectural product.

2) Because of the above, all the students were to have a working knowledge of AutoCAD commands and menu structures, and the ability to do 2D drafting using the base commands. This was supposed to be taught in the Arch CAD I class, which was a Pre-req for this class.

3) The way the class is structured, it met 1 day a week for 4 hours. The first two hours were to be lecture/demonstration by me teaching the concepts, the last two hours were to be lab time where they worked on their daily assignments and their final project.

4) Ideally, the final project would be a basic (and I stress basic) set of Construction Documents for a simple two story building that at least demonstrated they understood and could implement the smart components of AutoCAD Architectural.


What actually ended up happening....

1) As a new teacher, it took 6 weeks before I was given my own account on the network, so for the first 6 classes, I couldn't access their system to do attendance, record grades, or even use the computer and projector in the classroom to demonstrate how the commands work.

2) Even after I got the account, the system never worked correctly (bad permissions, but their IT department sucked so it never got fixed), so I would have to go in on other days and use the account of the Department head to record grades, etc.

3) The first day of class, I asked my students what their previous experience was with AutoCAD. Their were two teachers for the Arch. CAD I class, and my students seemed to be evenly divided between the two. Unfortunately, one of the two teachers felt it was more important for her students to learn how to draft by hand, so they never even opened AutoCAD, much less learned any of the commands. While there are some good lessons to be had from knowing what is important from hand drafting, it is impossible to teach smart objects in the advanced program if students don't even know who to open the basic program.

4) Even though this was a CAD class, it was pretty clear from the books I was given and the default syllabus I was to use that it was in more akin to a Materials and Methods class for the first two hours, then a babysit them at the computer class for the next 2. One of my lessons was supposed to be on how to properly size a fire box for a chimney in residential construction... another 2 classes were devoted to the grading system of wood components. Some of the stuff was very important if any of those students wanted to go into Architectural or structural drafting, but it doesn't do much good to teach the students how to detail wall construction properly at the expense of never spending any lecture time on how to actually use the program, demonstrate what the variables do, how to create your own components, etc. That was supposed to be occurring in the Lab section, but were sharing the lab with a Maya class, who was using the overhead projector to demonstrate modeling, so I had to literally go from computer to computer showing students how to use the commands (or how to open the software, start a new drawing, etc).

5) A mandatory component of the class (not from me, but from ITT) was that each student was to have a project that would require using their library for research. Because of the library they had, the assignment (which also included using 1-2 class periods for it) was to write a report on a famous architect.

6) The "Final" Project that I got back from each student, because of the lack of instruction time learning the software (and some of the stuff that was mandatory to "teach" about the software noone uses because it sucks), was about the level I would expect of a HS senior taking wood shop.

7) I feel 100% confident that the students that were at that point their 3rd of 4 years at the program are completely and utterly unprepared for any type of job in the CAD field, despite having spent 10k's of money.


You didn't mention what type of CAD you are interested in doing, but I can make some suggestions...

1) AutoDesk, which is the market leader for CAD software in the Arch/Bldg Eng fields, requires from their licensed vendors that the vendors have the capacity to offer training for the different packages. I would strongly suggest looking into those classes. They take 1-2 weeks, 4-8 hours a day, and its all about the software and how to use the commands/variables/customization.

2) If you are looking into Arch, Mech, Struct, or Electrical, learn Revit. It is also from AutoDesk, but is slowly taking over the market from AutoCAD with the innate BIM capabilities. I find most plumbing engineers are still using AutoCAD because their riser diagrams are just too easy to create in CAD versus Revit. Mechanical is having some issues with components for Revit, but the manufacturers are starting to come around and provide the blocks, so its improving.

3) Download and learn Sketch-up. There are two versions, the normal, free version, and a professional version. The only important difference between the two packages is that the Pro versions has export/import capabilities that tie into Max, AutoCAD, Revit and other drafting packages. However, to learn the software, the free has all the functions of the Pro. If you have a lot of experience with solid modeling, not being able to use standard Boolean operations on the models will be frustrating, since Sketchup is purely face based, but its an incredibly good package for design.

4) If you are evaluating schools, make sure they have some sort of "Materials and Methods" classes. Its one thing to be able to draw in CAD or Revit, its a completely different, and valuable skill set to be able to be able to actually draw things correctly. You won't be able to compete with 1st year Arch students looking for summer jobs if you don't understand the proper details for flashing, wall cavities, structural connections, etc.

Yeah, at this point, the ITT brochures are in the trash.

After talking to some more people about it, I am leaning toward web design at my local community college.

Someone in my IT dept at work said a friend of his graduated with a web design degree and is making $100k/year. Heard of similar need for web designers from others, as well.

You wont be making anywhere near $100k as an actual designer. The only people in the web industry making over $60k are the people writing back-end code like PHP or Ruby.

If you end up going the web route, though, feel free to ask for any help.

Well, I figure the 100k thing was more abnormal. And I think he did mention something about specialized coding in our conversation. It's something I can ask the advisor, along with the best route to take in IT. Pretty much everyone I have talked to agrees that Systems Admin is a saturated field at this point in time.

Just for reference, entry level web jobs in CA are paying 30-35k.

According to Mountwest's brochure, average salary for web design is $45-48k. They don't say if that is starting, tho.

And I think it also depends who is doing the hiring.

That's about the average salary for a CCNA here, or at least it was when a buddy of mine finished his. Right out of school, he was making $35k.

In other words, you probably won't be making the average salary right after you finish the program.

Said friend is now making $80k, and he finished his CCNA two years ago. I have no doubt that people in web design could make over $100k. If you're good at something, like really good, you can make a lot better than average salary.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Ok, I sent an e-mail to the contact referenced on the CC website.

Until then, what IT field would you all say is the most sought-after and makes the best money?

That's kind of hard to predict. You're going to finish in two years. That means every machine on the market now, including the cutting edge technology that programs advertise you'll be training on, will be obsolete by the time you finish.

Ultimately, you're going to have to be doing your own reading while you're in the program. Go job hunting for a crappy $10/hr job in your field during your second year of the course. By that point, you'll know enough that someone will be willing to take a chance and hire you on. You might be the cable ***** who plugs **** in, but you'll have some higher level techs and engineers teaching you one-on-one.

Do that, and it really won't matter which field is most sought-after. The guys who make the best money are the ones who know their ****. You're talking about a difference in pay of a few thousand dollars a year. The guy who makes $40k and the guy who makes $43 both live in the same size houses. It's not like an MCSE makes $38k and a web designer makes $90k. If you're enough of a hot shot to make $90k as a web designer, you could make the same money with a MCSE.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Yeah, it makes sense that it is market-dependent.

And I am already prepared to have to shell out money periodically for new IT technology literature. As you said, computer technology changes way too much in only a matter of a couple years.

Well thank you for the info, all. I'm at least going to talk to a counselor or professor and give this a shot. I can't continue to be stuck in this employment rut I'm in.

Whatever you decide to go for, try to get yourself interested in it and excited about it. That makes a much bigger difference than people ever realize at the time.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

The good thing about web development is that many of its languages are open source and free to learn about. No crazy-expensive books required.

I did some very basic web page building in a college intro to IT class back around '96-'97, but as I said it was very basic, and much has changed in ~15 years.

The concept, however, was not that difficult. I just lacked the knowledge of the more sophisticated development languages.

I'm pretty sure this is one of the most important things in life, even.

Now to figure out how to achieve motivation and genuine interest when it doesn't come naturally! Because this is the #1 difference I see between those wandering through life a bit aimlessly/unhappily and those who everything just seems to click for. Definitely a big factor.

Just get a CCIE. I hear the test is a breeze.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville