The Glade 4.0

Why exactly are you arguing with me here, DE?

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Go back to zero, take a pill, and get well ~ Lemmy Kilmister

He does have his moments.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Because I feel like addressing this point. Do you think you're entitled to make your points with no one pointing out anything wrong with them or something? If you don't feel like being responded to, no one demanded you start posting in Hellfire.

Why won't you address what I've posted? Are you just so enamored of this idea that "the militants will get a victory no matter what we do!" that you really can't see how that doesn't apply to every possible scenario? I've pointed out why that assumption applies to the "allow them or prevent them" question but not to the "they choose not to on their own" question. You haven't addressed it except to repeat that you rejected it out of hand.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

LOL Shel, I know you don't spend a lot of time in Hellfire, but that's pretty much what happens here. :p

Yeah, but don't you wonder sometimes yourself?

Sometimes folks let me have my say - I contribute my 2¢ and am outathere. Sometimes though, I have to defend my use of a period at the end of a sentence it feels like.

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In time, this too shall pass.

That's the thing; this isn't just the place for posting your 2¢. It's the post for everyone to do that, and sometimes that 2¢ is that your 2¢ isn't worth 2¢. That's where it starts getting ridiculous; people don't want to argue but they continue responding and turn it into an argument over whether it's worth arguing over when they could just not post.

It also doesn't help when someone wants to say something totally absurd and then gets upset when someone else points that out. Of course, the worst offender is gone now so... yeah.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

DE, pardon me for being rude, but ... your reaction seems highly illogical to me.

One of the primary arguments against allowing this community center/mosque to be built was the assumption that the radical militants will claim it as a moral victory. This, by the way, was your argument. This argument was then rendered a moot point in 2 ways. #1 - the fact that the general consensus now is that no efforts should be made to block, prevent or interfere with the project. #2 - the assumption that the radical militants would claim a moral victory whether or not we allow the project to proceed as planned. Oh yeah, by the way ... this was you changing your mind, and your point that a moral victory could be claimed in the event that we refuse to let the community center/mosque be built.

So I enter the thread a bit late, and in the process of giving my 2¢ opinion, I make brief mention of the 2 primary objections that have been raised. I do this in the spirit of completeness, so as not to appear to have failed to take note of what's been said here in this discussion. I then make mention of the fact that due to the shifting nature of the conversation, one of those 2 objections is no longer conversation-worthy. It has been rendered a non-issue by points you yourself made. And then you decide to take me to task for not beating the dead horse.

Now, I ask again - why are you arguing with me? I have not disagreed with anything you've said.
As a matter of fact, I essentially repeated what you said damn near word-for-word.
Compare your statement to mine, tell me in what way I disagreed with what you said, then explain to me why you're arguing with me.

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Go back to zero, take a pill, and get well ~ Lemmy Kilmister

Oh, I agree that it happens, and too often for my taste. My point was simply, don't be surprised by it.

DE has been argumentative of late, even if you agree with him. If your logic train didn't follow the same path then you are still wrong even if you agree on the outcome.

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It seems to me that if you post your point here and someone argues with your point, that you really do not owe them anything. You do not owe a response, or an explanation. Even in "Hellfire", you can state your case and ignore counter-arguments, unless you feel that you have to win some kind of debate. No one here owes anyone anything, so far as I can tell.

I've explained this at least 3 times now. The question of a moral victory for militants is not a moot point in the question of whether the mosque-builders should or should not proceed of their own accord. If the mosque builders decide not to, then it becomes very hard for the militants to claim any victory.

My point that they will inevitably claim victory in this matter was in relation to the question of whether or not the mosque should be legally permitted to be built.

So no, you cannot simply dismiss whether they will gain a victory out of it in regard to the question of what the mosque builders dreely choose to do.

I don't know why this distinction is so hard for you to grasp, since it is not a minor one. If we forbade the mosque, the militants could claim oppression. If we allow it and it is built they can claim a victory over our weakness. If we allow it but the builders choose to not proceed, what can they claim with any real credibility?

Now, that's 3 or 4 of the same explaination over again. Next time, I suggest you pay a little more attention to the context my comment you quoted was made in. No one is taking you to task for not beating a dead horse; I pointed out that I thought you misunderstood something and explaiend why, you said you didn't, I pointed out that I had no idea what you were talking about then, and then you decided to start wondering why I was arguing with you, after which I explained yet again, and then you come back and quote me and prove that no, you really didn't understand what I was talking about because you took my line about "inevitably they will claim..." and applied it to the question of what the mosque-builders ought to do rather than the question of should it be allowed legally, which was what that comment was addressing.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I see the problem here.
I misspoke, itemizing an argument against allowing the community center/mosque to be built when I stated that I was itemizing arguments against it's advisability.
You reasonably assumed that my words were in perfect alignment with my thoughts and thus, my understanding of the matter was sorely lacking.

I apologize. I had a lot of thoughts chasing themselves and each other in my brain when I typed that original post and upon re-reading it, I can clearly see where the misunderstanding was introduced although with the sole exception of having accidentally mis-labeled argument #1, I stand by everything I said.

Given my new understanding of the source of your frustration, I will endeavor not to bear you any hard feelings for the way you've spoken to me. Will you do the same for me?

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Go back to zero, take a pill, and get well ~ Lemmy Kilmister

Sure, no problem.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Generally this is true, occasionally someone becomes stubborn and insists on an answer, and there have even been stalkers who go from thread to thread, following and asking the same question ad nauseum.

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In time, this too shall pass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

Keith Olbermann

SFW

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Olbermann makes some good points, and some idiotic points. Usually, he's an idiot, imo.

So this Imam is back from his tour and is speaking to media now. Here we are told that if we move this Cordoba house thing now, we're going to piss off the Muslim world and help Osama, or something:

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/08/li ... peaks/?hpt



Oh well, in that case, lets build two so we're extra safe.

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“Strong people are harder to kill than weak people, and more useful in general”. - Mark Rippetoe

Which is nonsense. If HE chooses to move it, anger will not "explode in the muslim world" unless he's basically admitting that the only way NOT to anger the muslim world is for a mosque not only to be permitted but to actually be built anywhere that suits someone's fancy. This message is essentially saying "Don't anger muslims, because unlike you, they're likely to become violent extremists if you make them mad".

This confirms what I thought: This guy knows exactly what he's doing and he's not moderate. He may not be an extremist or an extremist sympathizer but he's definitely using fear of angering muslims as a reason why it's ok to anger everyone else. Ironically he's feeding exactly the impression of muslims that he claims to be building this mosque to combat.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I won't be angered if he doesn't move it, many on here will not either so quite simply it is not as you define it as "muslims or everyone else".

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

I'd like an atheist to go up to both the Muslim and Christian religious leaders and say "9/11 wasn't the work of crazed Muslims, it was the work of crazed religion. You're both a hair away and I think out of respect to any atheist victims of 9/11 you should both keep your churches away from ground zero."

Oh wait, pastor, you don't think you're disrespecting the victims of 9/11? Well neither does he. This country needs to get over 9/11.

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"...the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

Why? No one is trying to put a church at Ground Zero. This is just about you having a beef with religion.



No, we do not.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Wwen's post isn't about any beef with anyone's religion or religion in general ...

And, yes, actually, we do need to "get over" 9/11 and move forward with our politics, our policy, and our nation. I'm sorry, but while it was a grievous tragedy and a horrible event: Worse **** happens in 90% of the world EVERY **** DAY.

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What has this got to do with anything? Obviously some people won't be angered if it isn't moved. That doesn't mean, however, that other things couldn't anger you, but you would most likely not go to Pakistan and start placing car bombs around marketplaces. The imam is pointing out the likelyhood of muslim anger in order to play on fears of creating more militant extremists; it isn't like "angering the muslim world" would be a serious issue if Islamic extremism were not the phenomenon it is today.

That same line of thinking could be extended to any other thing we do which "angers the muslim world", including things that if we did the reverse you would find angered you. It isn't a problem that's somehow limited to this particular mosque. It's an illustration that not only is the imam being disingenuous (since it would be he who would decide to move the mosque) but also that people are perfectly willing to use fears of "angering muslims", and thereby creating more terrorists to get what they want - which is precisely why people engage in terrorism in the first place, and while having a mosque there may not piss you off specifically there's nothing limiting this thinking to just the mosque.

Furthermore, your entire claim is nothing more than a semantic nitpick of "everyone" when I should have said "anyone". Congratulations, you found a minor mistake on my part. Yet another glorious victory for arguing semantics instead of the point.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Yes, it pretty clearly is.



No, worse **** does not happen every day in 90% of the world. Worse **** comes around once or twice a year, usually in the form of some natural disaster no one can do jack **** about. That doesn't mean we need to forget about people attacking us when they're still perfectly willing to do so.

We don't need to "move forward" at all. Trying to "move forward" is exactly how we have the current jackass(es) in office.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Diamondeye:

Except, Wwen's post isn't about religion or any anti-religious position on his part. You may want it to be, but it's not. It's about people getting in other people's faces and telling them how to think about ****. Sort of like you telling us we don't need to move past our tragedies.

By the way, last I checked, there's still all sorts of ethnic violence going on in Africa and some parts of South America (well, Narco Violence in a lot of cases here). Some of it even in Mexico. And we won't even get into some of the **** that's happening in South East Asia.

But, you know, 3000 people? One major terrorist attack of any success in the last however long? We can and should move past that. We've got bigger issues to address.

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