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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:27 pm 
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Global bid to tackle cooking smoke

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The US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has announced a global partnership to tackle the scourge of toxic smoke from indoor cooking fires.

Cooking smoke is estimated to shorten the lives of 1.9 million people a year; it also contributes to climate change.

The Global Alliance for Clean Cookstoves is a partnership between the US government and other nations along with charitable foundations.

It is believed to be the first major attempt to tackle the issue worldwide.

The project will attempt to build on national programmes already underway in India, Mexico and Peru.

It aims to introduce modern low-pollution stoves to the homes of 100 million poor people by 2020.

Clean stoves run on biomass (with chimneys and clean-burn mechanisms), or gas, or on solar power.

The stoves programme would help to protect poor people from eye disease, lung disease and cancer; save forests from being ravaged for fuel; reduce CO2 emissions and reduce emissions of black smoke, which also contributes to global warming.

But it is a huge challenge for a global partnership to deal with the scattered homes of the estimated 3 billion poor people who cook on stoves or open fires.

The Alliance is co-ordinated by the UN Foundation. The US government is pledging $50m, with other partners adding a further $10m over five years. More funds are being sought to expand the scheme.

Finance from carbon trading has not so far been used for cookstoves, even though it would be a highly effective way of combating climate change.

There has been wrangling over the rules of the Clean Development Mechanism, which refuses funding for projects that might have happened otherwise.

Typically carbon finance has tended to favour big projects anyway, which has made it hard for the sort of small-scale packages with tailor-made cooking solutions in poor nations.

Cooking is estimated to produce about 20% of the world's emissions of black carbon. The main sources of black carbon are forest burning and incomplete combustion of fossil fuels like coal and diesel, but cookstoves are a particular problem in Asia.

The role of black carbon in climate change is still being quantified and will be the source of debate for the next IPCC report. Some scientists believe it is the second largest contributor to climate change after CO2, with upper estimates suggesting it could be responsible for as much as 55% of the warming from CO2.

In areas covered in snow and ice where albedo - reflectivity - is reduced by deposits of atmospheric carbon, it may equal the warming effect of CO2.

The clean cookstoves programme also claims less obvious benefits: collecting biomass for cooking and heating forces women and children to spend hours each week collecting wood. Women face severe per sonal security risks as they forage for fuel, especially from refugee camps and in conflict zones.

Cooking with wood also increases pressure on habitats and wildlife.


I can only say this to Mrs. Clinton.. **** you.

This is so **** stupid. We are pledging 50 million dollars to this?

Die in a fire and take all of your kind with you you stupid twat.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:38 pm 
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$50m is nothing. Do they really think it's going to accomplish anything?

Just look at all we got for $800b.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:05 pm 
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but cooking fires? Really? Is everything else in the world so little of a problem that this useless bastion of androgyny can really tell the American people that with EVERYTHING else going on... cooking fires are really one of the worst things we can worry about?

Interviewer: Excuse me Mrs Clinton... so with the recession in place and with homes still being lost in droves and unemployment sky high... Cooking is a bigger problem?

Useless Twat: Yes, because... well.... ummmmmm... think of the children damnit!

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:56 pm 
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Time to fire up the smoker, I've got half a pig to cook up.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:16 am 
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We live in an ultra-liberal society, and there are individuals out there who will have a problem with every single thing you do... and some of them manage to get into office and legislate against those things. The only option left is to fight town hall, where ever town hall may go.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:00 am 
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Oddly enough I understand this. In 3rd world countries most cooking is done indoors over a campfire type fire. Carbon monoxide from that does contribute to shortening their lives. Simple tech like a rocket stove will vent the exhaust gasses, and uses up much less wood than normal campfire cooking.

However.....
Hiding this under the failed banner of "climate change/global warming/whateverfearinducingwordthisweek is utter BS. Humanitarian yes. Battling global warming- yeah um - no.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:43 am 
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Hannibal,

Were we (as a country) not bankrupt and *** **** financially... I could potentially see taking part in this study. But under the current circumstances: **** the third world countries

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:50 am 
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In related news, deaths attributed to cold during the winter months rises dramatically in 3rd world countries. The US is spearheading a program to supply kerosene heaters to help alleviate the misery.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:15 am 
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It's a pretty big deal for women and small children (who hang out with the cooking women) overseas.

IF we accept that the US should be spending money overseas to help make the world a better place, then this is just as good an issue to address as anything else.

It would not be #1 on my list, but it's not the only issue we are working to solve.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:36 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
In related news, deaths attributed to cold during the winter months rises dramatically in 3rd world countries. The US is spearheading a program to supply kerosene heaters to help alleviate the misery.

I thought that was why we all drove SUVs? Compassionate Global Warming (I mean Climate Change!!! Ooops!)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:46 pm 
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darksiege wrote:
Hannibal,

Were we (as a country) not bankrupt and *** **** financially... I could potentially see taking part in this study. But under the current circumstances: **** the third world countries


Ill take it a step further. Zero aid until we have a balanced budget at home. Until my countries finances are correct and my countrymen are employed, this "bubble up" prosperity bs ideas need to end.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:53 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
darksiege wrote:
Hannibal,

Were we (as a country) not bankrupt and *** **** financially... I could potentially see taking part in this study. But under the current circumstances: **** the third world countries


Ill take it a step further. Zero aid until we have a balanced budget at home. Until my countries finances are correct and my countrymen are employed, this "bubble up" prosperity bs ideas need to end.


It's hand-down economics. Zombie Reagan would be proud.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:22 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
darksiege wrote:
Hannibal,

Were we (as a country) not bankrupt and *** **** financially... I could potentially see taking part in this study. But under the current circumstances: **** the third world countries


Ill take it a step further. Zero aid until we have a balanced budget at home. Until my countries finances are correct and my countrymen are employed, this "bubble up" prosperity bs ideas need to end.

I see it the other way around, actually. Until our country gets serious about tackling the real causes of fiscal imbalance - by either substantially raising taxes or significantly cutting social security, medicare, and defense - complaints about small but effective programs like this one are just political pablum for deficit chickenhawks.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:24 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
I see it the other way around, actually. Until our country gets serious about tackling the real causes of fiscal imbalance - by either substantially raising taxes or significantly cutting social security, medicare, and defense - complaints about small but effective programs like this one are just political pablum for deficit chickenhawks.


This. So this.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Hauser's Law ...

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:43 pm 
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However, 2009 tax collections, at 15% of GDP, were the lowest level of the past 50 years and 4.5 percentage points lower than Hauser's Law suggests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauser's_Law


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:47 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
I see it the other way around, actually. Until our country gets serious about tackling the real causes of fiscal imbalance - by either substantially raising taxes or significantly cutting social security, medicare, and defense - complaints about small but effective programs like this one are just political pablum for deficit chickenhawks.

Well, ignoring whether or not this is an effective program, foreign aid in its various forms is not a small part of the equation. This $50 million might seem like small change (and honestly, its depressing that people consider it so, as it just highlights how desensitized to fiscal matters the population has become), but a total of $26 billion in 2009 isn't small, and that doesn't include foreign defense aid, which in 2006, combined was over $40 billion. And nor does that include payments to the UN (in 1996 was $4 billion)... we currently pay around 22% of the UN direct expenses (doesn't include soft costs like salaries for our soldiers, equipment, etc).

Any quess to the amount Obama hopes to eliminate with his deficit reduction committee?


Last edited by Ladas on Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:48 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
However, 2009 tax collections, at 15% of GDP, were the lowest level of the past 50 years and 4.5 percentage points lower than Hauser's Law suggests.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hauser's_Law

Hauser's Law isn't an immediate feedback, which should be obvious considering how our taxation works.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
This $500 million

Point of clarification: $50 million, not $500 million. Well, $60 million with the additional $10 million over five years.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Stupid fingers. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
a total of $26 billion in 2009 isn't small

In terms of deficit reduction, $26 billion actually is small. It was about 0.7% of the budget in 2009. And as you said, that's every last dollar of non-defense foreign aid. (I think foreign defense aid is more properly considered part of the defense expenditures.) So again, if a politician or pundit starts shouting to the rafters about balancing the budget, and he points to eliminating foreign aid (or some particular program under that rubric) as an example of what needs to happen, ignore him; he's a fraud.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Khross wrote:
Hauser's Law ...

Khross, I'm curious what your views on Hauser's Law are. Do you think it has predictive value or is it merely descriptive of the recent past? Does the steady increase in payroll taxes over the relevant time period undermine the conclusions drawn? Is it just an artifact of our particular tax system, or does it reflect some deeper cultural instincts in the US? And so forth.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:33 pm 
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I think the American Left is pretty delusional when it comes to taxation and how it should be distributed. Hauser's Law attests to that fact. The American Left perpetually seeks to increase the taxes paid by the top 2% of earners; it seeks to punish wealth accumulation and personal success by increasing their burden in paying for the day to day operations of a government that gives the bottom 50% a free ride.

That said, because our system of taxation is so imbalanced, it actually contributes to the growing economic stratification is this country. That's what I think ...

As it pertains to Hauser's Law? The more you tax the "rich"; the less inclined they find themselves to actually "make" money.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:36 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Ladas wrote:
a total of $26 billion in 2009 isn't small

In terms of deficit reduction, $26 billion actually is small. It was about 0.7% of the budget in 2009. And as you said, that's every last dollar of non-defense foreign aid. (I think foreign defense aid is more properly considered part of the defense expenditures.) So again, if a politician or pundit starts shouting to the rafters about balancing the budget, and he points to eliminating foreign aid (or some particular program under that rubric) as an example of what needs to happen, ignore him; he's a fraud.

But thank you for illustrating my point about lack of understanding fiscal scale.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Small and efficient programs...wait
small programs of unknown efficiency...wait
small programs of unknown efficency that are unconstitutional...wait
Small (relative to the normal huge excess of government) of unknown efficiency that are unconstitutional should always be done away with whenever found.

It doesn't matter the scale - all of these programs need to end. ALL OF THEM.

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