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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:32 am 
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Vindicarre wrote:
Aizle:

Care to be specify, or is that too much to ask as well?


Sure. Here's my first post in this thread.

Aizle wrote:
You haven't been to Montana have you? :lol:

The flaw with your analogy is that most farmers aren't celebate. The point Xeq is making is that you're putting people into a position where they are having to repress what is arguably the most primal and core driver of the human race. That's going to have some adverse affects, because it's a completely unnatural act.


The ONLY statement I'm making here is the celibacy isn't natural, and that it's going to have some adverse affects.

I'm of course immediately jumped on and have my words twisted by Rynar.

Rynar wrote:
This is one of the most absurd arguments I've ever heard, and I've heard it twice now in fewer than 20 posts. Celebacy does not, I repeat, DOES NOT turn men into child rapists.


So I attempt to clarify:

Aizle wrote:
To be clear, I don't believe that celebacy turns men into pedophiles. However I do believe that celebacy does cause a lot of stress that comes out in odd ways and wrongheaded thinking about most things sexual in nature.


Then we have this gem, again twisting what I said:

Ladas wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Ladas wrote:
Well, considering he is gay, it was also a dig at your position regarding celibacy causes molestation.


Yeah, I figured.

He was gay before he was celibate.

So to make sure I understand the playing field here, he was gay before he was celibate, but for priests, its being celibate that makes them gay/molest boys?


Here we even have Talya change what I've said.

Aizle wrote:
Talya wrote:
Aizle wrote:
These are all sexual releases. Artificially supressing those releases puts a significant amount of strain on someones system and mental state. Different people react differently to those strains.



While this is possible (see prisons), I highly doubt it it's a major. Changing one's sexual preferences that drastically is less likely than simply having them break their celibacy vows with a woman. (Of course, the latter is undoubtably far more common, too.)


I'm not, nor have I been stating that I think that celibacy is going to change one's sexual preference.

What I'm saying is that if you're someone who is gay (whether or not they have admitted that to themselves is another issue) and finds young men attractive, and then are put into a situation where you are strictly prohibited from acting on those urges, I believe you are more likely to do something stupid and reprehensible.

Alternatively, if you were the same man and put into a scenario where your sexuality was celebrated and there were any number of younger men who were over the age of 18, but liked to play dress up or similar were available and interested, I believe you would be much less likely to do something stupid and reprehensible.


Yet will all the attempts at clarification Taskiss still twists what I've said:

Taskiss wrote:
The whole argument that priests are driven to the sexual extreme of pedophilia because they snap from the impossible attempt to suppress their appetites is an exercise in anti-catholic bigotry.


Really DE has been the only one who's been arguing honestly in my opinion and not purposefully twisting what I've said to demonize me or my comments. Taly and RD have been basically on my side to varying degrees, with RD being the one who'd immediately understood my point.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:40 am 
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You've muted this assertion considerably.
Quote:
The ONLY statement I'm making here is the celibacy isn't natural, and that it's going to have some adverse affects.


Here's the original assertion:
Quote:
I do believe that celebacy does cause a lot of stress that comes out in odd ways and wrongheaded thinking about most things sexual in nature.


Going from "wrongheaded thinking about most things sexual in nature" to "it's going to have some adverse affects" ...

I think it's time to accuse others of lack of reading comprehension again, just so you remain consistent.

You also suffer from some delusion that you're the only person I'm addressing in my posts.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:44 am 
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Actually Taskiss, if you cared to read (happy?), is that the wrongheaded thinking comment was a clarification and expansion on the initial comment.

Taskiss wrote:
You also suffer from some delusion that you're the only person I'm addressing in my posts.


If that quote I posted was not pointed at me, then I apologize. However, given the content of the thread immediately preceeding it's post, I think it's a fair assumption to have made.


Last edited by Aizle on Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:44 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
Going from "wrongheaded thinking about most things sexual in nature" to "it's going to have some adverse affects" ...


Western religion in general has historically been primarily promoting wrongheaded thinking about most things sexual in nature, because the great invisible man in the sky, creator of the infinite cosmos and everything in it, has no better things to do than worry about whether you enjoy rubbing your penis.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:47 am 
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Talya wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Going from "wrongheaded thinking about most things sexual in nature" to "it's going to have some adverse affects" ...


Western religion in general has historically been primarily promoting wrongheaded thinking about most things sexual in nature, because the great invisible man in the sky, creator of the infinite cosmos and everything in it, has no better things to do than worry about whether you enjoy rubbing your penis.


And whom you may enjoy rubbing it against for that matter.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:03 am 
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Aizle wrote:
I think it's a fair assumption to have made.

You do that a lot, you know - make what you consider to be "fair" assumptions.

This discussion has folks attacking religion, accusing the priesthood of condoning pedophilia, etc... or haven't you noticed?

There's your context.

Talya wrote:
That the church (catholic and otherwise) is a harmful force for human society now as it has been throughout history is undeniable to any logical and rational thinker. Any argument otherwise is nothing more than apologism at best. Being "bigoted against the church" is said like it's a bad thing. The church is a murdering, book-burning, child-abusing, rapist, tyrant and villain. I happen to be bigotted against murderers, book burners, child abusers, rapists, tyrants, and villains, I will freely admit--but such a statement is absurd. Everyone should be bigoted against such things. So don't expect any concessions in regard to the diabolical human organizations known as "religions."

I don't agree with all of Aizle's points here, but to make vague claims of bigotry or dishonesty is intellectually shameful of you and betrays a gross lack of willingness to engage in legitimate discourse. Aizle has said nothing that isn't worth thinking about, at the very least.

Taskiss wrote:
The whole argument that priests are driven to the sexual extreme of pedophilia because they snap from the impossible attempt to suppress their appetites is an exercise in anti-catholic bigotry.


You may not like the fact that Taly suggests your argument has merit that should be considered to support her positions, but there you have it.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:17 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I think it's a fair assumption to have made.

You do that a lot, you know - make what you consider to be "fair" assumptions.


Yeah, I do. No idea where I got the impression that comment was pointed at me...

Taskiss wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
In the 5 & 1/2 pages prior to Khross & Vindi's posts at 2:00 and 2:15 today, what evidence or support did anyone provide for their views on the topic at hand or any of the other claims that were made (e.g. media bias, liberal agendas, anti-Catholic bigotry, etc.)? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? ...

Where is the burden of proof in this argument, RD? You think it's on the folks that carry on with accusations of sexual "wrongheaded"ness and pedophilia or is it with those who challenge those assertions?

The whole argument that priests are driven to the sexual extreme of pedophilia because they snap from the impossible attempt to suppress their appetites is an exercise in anti-catholic bigotry.

Do you think that such an argument, supplied without evidence, should obligate those who would challenge it or those that promote it?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:20 am 
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Aizle wrote:
Yeah, I do. No idea where I got the impression that comment was pointed at me...

Pointed at your argument, sure. It's been co-opted or hadn't you noticed? It's now part and parcel of what has turned into an attack on religion in general and the Catholic Church in particular.

Personally, I think it's all data points along the same line. Taly's position is just farther out there.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:26 am 
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RangerDave wrote:
Personally, I don't think there needs to be a "burden of proof" on anyone. I really don't get why it's become so difficult to just have a conversation in the realm of reasonable hypothesis and opinion. That said, if there is to be a burden of proof required, I'd say it should be on whoever asserts their opinion as fact rather than conjecture. If Bob says, "It seems plausible that X might lead to Y," and Carl responds, "Absolutely not. There is no connection between X and Y," Carl is the one who's made a statement of certain fact that necessitates proof. Bob just raised a seemingly plausible idea for consideration.


You know, I've been skipping whole pages of this thread because I don't care much, but this post seemed to mandate some attention.

There has to be a burden of proof on issues like this because it isn't like Aizle is saying, "Gee, I think the Camaro kicks the **** out of the Mustang." What he is effectively stating is that being a Catholic priest turns you into a **** pedophile.

That's an incredibly broad charge to be slinging around so slanderously. When you make slanderous, libelous, offensive statements, you should be able to support them. If you can, the opposition has no foot to stand in refuting you, and you're not really being slanderous at that point so much as factual. If you can't, you're being a bigot, or at the very least "discriminatory and offensive." Such behavior should be called out in a moral society.

So, arguing that such statements should be allowed to exist without challenge (challenge then creating the burden of proof) is effectively endorsement of "bigoted" behavior.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:29 am 
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DFK! wrote:
"Gee, I think the Camaro kicks the **** out of the Mustang."

NOW you're being a heretic!

You're gunna burn....there is no depth of hell deep enough for folks that promote that garbage!


grrr.....

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:33 am 
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DFK! wrote:
What he is effectively stating is that being a Catholic priest turns you into a **** pedophile.


Yeah, except that it's NOT what I've been saying, and have repeatedly clarified that point several times you retard.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:45 am 
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Aizle wrote:
DFK! wrote:
What he is effectively stating is that being a Catholic priest turns you into a **** pedophile.


Yeah, except that it's NOT what I've been saying, and have repeatedly clarified that point several times you retard.

Trouble is, within the context of how the thread has progressed, that's what people "effectively" take as your argument.

I hate it when folks make "fair assumptions", don't you? :) Sometimes it seems so unfair...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:49 am 
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"Out there," huh. Stephen Fry, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, A.C. Grayling and the late Carl Sagan are "out there," too, I suppose. How about authors like the late Douglas Adams?

Apologists for the church are becoming rarer and rarer, while those who understand its evil are becoming more and more common.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:54 am 
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Hitchens and Dawkins are widely held to be "out there" by major proponents of religiousity.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:57 am 
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Corolinth wrote:
Hitchens and Dawkins are widely held to be "out there" by major proponents of religiousity.


Which is much like Flat Earth society members holding astronomers to be "out there."

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:58 am 
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Talya wrote:
"Out there," huh. Stephen Fry, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, A.C. Grayling and the late Carl Sagan are "out there," too, I suppose. How about authors like the late Douglas Adams?

Apologists for the church are becoming rarer and rarer, while those who understand its evil are becoming more and more common.

Taly, you're no " Stephen Fry, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, A.C. Grayling and the late Carl Sagan".

Not even on your best day. I think you're in a class all your own.

I'm immune to any blathering 'cause I don't ascribe my spirituality to religion, but I can recognize when someone descends to the depths of their bigotry to dredge for their arguments, and lo and behold...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:03 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Micheal wrote:
You sirs, who believe and spread this libel, this scurrilous debasement of a religious calling, are the monsters....You have lost all credibility with me. Nothing you say can be taken as honest, from this point henceforth.

To whom is this comment directed, Micheal?


Reread the thread. Look for comments where priests, especially Catholic priests, are as a whole lumped into the category of child molesters because they choose to take a vow and live a celibate life. Do you see limitations on those accusations? Or is the whole set of celibate religious men being thrown into the mangler with the relatively few bad apples.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
RangerDave wrote:
Micheal wrote:
You sirs, who believe and spread this libel, this scurrilous debasement of a religious calling, are the monsters....You have lost all credibility with me. Nothing you say can be taken as honest, from this point henceforth.

To whom is this comment directed, Micheal?


Reread the thread. Look for comments where priests, especially Catholic priests, are as a whole lumped into the category of child molesters because they choose to take a vow and live a celibate life. Do you see limitations on those accusations? Or is the whole set of celibate religious men being thrown into the mangler with the relatively few bad apples.

If the shoe fits, wear it.


There's one individual who's making those broad generalizations, yet there are many of us being painted with that brush.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
DFK! wrote:
What he is effectively stating is that being a Catholic priest turns you into a **** pedophile.


Yeah, except that it's NOT what I've been saying, and have repeatedly clarified that point several times you retard.


What was that about retarded? Let's try speaking English first, limp-dick.

DFK! wrote:
You know, I've been skipping whole pages of this thread because I don't care much, but this post seemed to mandate some attention.


Now, let's look at your first post of the thread, supporting Xequecal's believe that being a Catholic priest makes you a pedophile:

Aizle wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Catholic doctrine makes sex crimes far more likely. What do you think is going to happen when you tell men that not only can they never have sex, ever, but it's sinful for them to even think about it?

It's also illegal to have sex with goats but I haven't seen a run on farms.


You haven't been to Montana have you? :lol:

The flaw with your analogy is that most farmers aren't celebate. The point Xeq is making is that you're putting people into a position where they are having to repress what is arguably the most primal and core driver of the human race. That's going to have some adverse affects, because it's a completely unnatural act.


Then, let's look at you trying to clarify yourself in the next post, while simultaneously trying to mealy-mouth the issue:

Aizle wrote:
To be clear, I don't believe that celebacy turns men into pedophiles. However I do believe that celebacy does cause a lot of stress that comes out in odd ways and wrongheaded thinking about most things sexual in nature.
[bold mine]

Personally, given that I can read and speak English, I think the bolded part falls entirely into line with this statement of mine:

DFK! wrote:
What he is effectively stating is that being a Catholic priest turns you into a **** pedophile.
[underline added]

See, in English, adverbs modify verbs.

That use of "effectively stating" is further substantiated by statements of yours such as this:

Aizle wrote:
Not so much missed something, as are trying to use a shade of grey as a black and white switch. I'm certain there are some pedophiles that have gotten into the clergy that would have been pedophiles regardless. I'm also certain there are those who have entered the clergy and have reacted very poorly to the limitations and restrictions put on them and made some terrible decisions and became pedophiles.
[underline mine]

Then there's this post, where you do not in any way refute Khross's characterization of your opinion as [effectively] being that being a priest causes pedophilia:

Aizle wrote:
Khross wrote:
Having strong opinions is one thing; asserting your opinions are correct with no evidential support for their veracity is another. You think the Church is harmful; yet, as usual, refuse to support your beliefs with anything subject to critique. The only evidence you've provided is a speech full of glaring falsehoods and misinformation. More to the point, you're propagating a media bias about the "propensity" of abuse within the Priesthood without abandon. You have an agenda to push that has nothing to do with facts or history. Consequently, your bigotry is rather obvious.


Ah I see, so now it's the "liberal" media who's conspiring to attack the Church.

I have supported my position, the fact is you don't like it and have your undies in a bunch. Tough.



In other words, your statements could easily be taken to support the idea that becoming a Catholic priest makes you a pedophile, if not universally than at least "frequently."

Furthermore, since I wasn't addressing you when I was pointing out to RD that slanderous and bigoted statements should require substantiation, you could feel free to support anything you say on this forum when you're attacking a billion people's religion.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:10 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Aizle wrote:
DFK! wrote:
What he is effectively stating is that being a Catholic priest turns you into a **** pedophile.


Yeah, except that it's NOT what I've been saying, and have repeatedly clarified that point several times you retard.

Trouble is, within the context of how the thread has progressed, that's what people "effectively" take as your argument.


Obviously, what annoying is that I've gone out of my way to clarify my comments yet some people can't seem to get that through their thick skull.

Taskiss wrote:
I hate it when folks make "fair assumptions", don't you? :) Sometimes it seems so unfair...


You're being an ***.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
There's one individual who's making those broad generalizations, yet there are many of us being painted with that brush.

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."
Aizle wrote:
You're being an ***.

I've been called worse. In fact, I've BEEN worse. I kinda thought I'd at least get a point or two for my civility.

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Last edited by Taskiss on Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Aizle wrote:
There's one individual who's making those broad generalizations, yet there are many of us being painted with that brush.

"He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad."


It's simpler than that.

If one doesn't want one's position conflated with another, their first entry into the debate shouldn't be in defense of the other's position.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:15 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Taly, you're no " Stephen Fry, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, A.C. Grayling and the late Carl Sagan".

Not even on your best day. I think you're in a class all your own.




Perhaps not. They're more adamant and nasty about it. Not that it makes them wrong, however.

It's funny that the religious leaders of the Catholic Church (and the leaders of the Protestant Reformation) spent decades basically in a state of war with each other, executing each others followers as heretics, burning those who dared disagree with them -- and the fundamental attitudes that caused these things within the churches haven't changed at all...Yet i'm the "bigot" in a "class of her own" for daring to be so outrageous as to call a spade a spade.

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Last edited by Talya on Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:19 pm 
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This thread is not only going places, it's already gone all sorts of places, and all I got was a tshirt.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Mookhow wrote:
This thread is not only going places, it's already gone all sorts of places, and all I got was a tshirt.

WATCH IT! It's been determined (in this thread, of all places) that tshirts can cause abnormal attraction to anime of young Japanese school girls...

ARG!!! TOO LATE!

Now I think we have to burn you... let me check what it says about that on page 5 and get back to you, OK?

Don't go anywhere...

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