The Glade 4.0

I'm not sure if you understand the concept behind reboots? EQN is unrecognizable because [some of] the deities have been changed? Gimme a break.

Please elaborate on what else is different, because they've still got fantasy races living in a world called Norrath, with a history of Dragon / Shissar wars and a Combine Empire. There are still wizard spires throughout the world and the elves are still from Takish-Hiz. Qeynos is still going to be an early fledgling city and eventually capital.

I mean, you have to REALLY nitpick to say that this is not recognizable as EverQuest.

Yeah, I'm not really getting how this isn't recognizable as EQ. Unless you mean it's just different from EQ. In that case I'd point out that's because it's not EQ; it's EQN.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Those might be valid rebuttals, if the game wasn't attempting to rely on EQ's brand appeal. Yes, it's called EQ Next. That creates certain expectations in the target audience. So no, you don't get a break. The pantheon of deities is a very valid criticism, as it is part of the EverQuest setting. It's sort of like the comment I made several pages back to the tune of, "Since when do dark elves have horns?"

A reboot does not give you full license to make any changes that the current crop of artists think would be cool. This is not a new product where you are trying to impress me with your artistic vision. This is a revamped version of a beloved product, where you are trying to impress me with your ability to revive what I loved about the original product.

These little things do matter, because those idiosyncrasies were what made EQ the experience we all enjoyed. I could have fun in a game where dark elves have horns, or where there are no dark elves at all, but that game would not be EQ. Raltar could enjoy a game that doesn't involve Fennin Ro, Xegony, or Cazic Thule, but that game would not be EQ. Make no mistake, we are being sold EQ.

To put it bluntly, if I can't walk around in a city up in the trees on Faydwer, Sony can take their reboot and shove it up their ***. The pantheon of gods is such an item for Raltar. A reboot is not a brand new product, guys.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

I must have missed the part about dark elves with horns. I thought Raltar was referring to the class mechanics we discussed earlier.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

I'm sorry but the removal of some deities and the addition of some dark elf horns does not make this a new brand.

Personally I was glad to see the dark elves with SOMETHING other than smurf skin that made them unique and distinguishable.

But then I'm not as whiny as some. If anyone should be upset over *massive* changes to racial features, look no further than the players who played trolls and ogres in the original Pre-Luclin game.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

Elidroth was not my favorite dev.

Not sure how I feel about a game he's spinning off.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Rosie is still head of art and is polling twitter about fatty trolls and ogres, so.....

I think the point was that if you're going to go "ZOMG! Horns on Dark Elves! This isn't an Everquest Reboot", then the evidence of major char model changes from Velious -> Luclin would make Luclin not an "EQ Reboot" either, but just "another similar game".

Also, I've not seen it billed as a pure reboot, but rather an EverQuest from a parallel universe.

Similar, but not the same.

So changing up some of the pantheon isn't that far off, nor is adding horns to dark elves.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Oh same argument happening over whether EQN gets cursed ogres/trolls or not, right now

Yeh.

I'm always amazed at how judgy people can be about a game from preliminary notes a year before it comes out.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

There is a difference between a change that improves the setting, and a change that was made to show that you've made changes. For instance, what is the purpose of adding horns to dark elves? Part of the appeal of dark elves was that they were the evil mirror of the other elves, and looked so much like the rest of their kin. So the idea is to make them less elf-like in appearance? What sense does that make. If EQ Next is to be set earlier, they should be more elf-like, not less. Moreover, dark elves on Norrath do not have horns. We have two EverQuest games to use for reference. The addition of horns makes them not the dark elves of Norrath, but rather the dark elves of some other world. That is, in point of fact, indicative of being some other brand.

So dark elves have horns. Is there a reason for this that makes some sort of coherent sense, or is the current artist just trying to wow us with his/her fresh new vision of dark elves? I find the former unlikely, and am leaning towards some douchebag artist deciding dark elves would look so badass if they have horns. That he or she is being entertained in this manner speaks volumes about the creative direction of the project. What it says is that the developer is not concerned with maintaining the look and feel of EverQuest, and fans of the product are right to feel let down, even betrayed, by that direction. Onlookers would be advised to guard their enthusiasm, because the chances are very good that we are not being sold EQ Next, but rather some other game that Sony has slapped the EQ brand on in order to sucker in a pre-existing fan base. Kind of like 4th edition D&D, which has not been doing particularly well for WotC.

Now let's take the pantheon. Rodcet Nife could be excluded and replaced with some precursor deity. For a game set in what appears to be a previous point in the history of Norrath, this could be perfectly valid and interesting. Now let's take the elemental deities. EQ had three elemental gods of water, serving as the metaphysical embodiment of each of the three states of water. That was a very interesting aspect of the pantheon that set Norrath apart from other settings, and was thematically appropriate for their combined purview. The decision to go to a single deity for each of the classical elements is highly questionable at best. There was certainly some fat to be trimmed among the Norrathian pantheon, but the place to start should have been the various demigods we knew nothing about, who were only added when Sony needed a new server name, rather than a set of elemental gods with a clear thematic hook.

These are elements of game design that go beyond having pretty pictures, flashing lights, hip music, and buttons for you to press. I realize that many of you want to point and scoff about frivolous nerd rage, but let's turn that around. What's the big deal about horns on dark elves? Why is that so important? It's not, is it? So why change it in the first place? The only possible result from that change is you might piss off existing fans. If it's not that big a deal, why do it?

There is a distinct difference between a good game and a good EverQuest game. It is entirely possible that this is both a great game and a shitty presentation of EverQuest. Some setting changes could be entirely warranted, and those are to be applauded, but that isn't what we're seeing so far. The setting changes that have been presented thus far are simply the current development team sticking their dicks in the pudding.

So would horned dark elves prevent me from playing the game? If I had already purchased it, and I see my first dark elf at the character generation screen, no it wouldn't prevent me from playing. I was going to make a human ranger, anyway. But I'm not sitting at the character generation screen. I'm reading about stupid setting changes in pre-beta announcements. I'm asking myself what other stupid changes were made and how many I'm willing to put up with. What's the critical mass of stupid changes before I don't want to play this game? I have the entirety of the beta test phase to determine where that threshold is and whether EQ Next has crossed it.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

Yes. They haven't specified yet, but they have said there's a reason and it will be explained when more lore is released.

To your points that keep referencing EQN as "an earlier point in history" that is not exactly the case. The foundations of this history are different, this is not 500 years before EverQuest. This is a new world based on the same lore basics. There are going to be many key players that everyone recognizes throughout the world and storyline that play different parts. That still doesn't make this not EverQuest.

We walked into the original world of Norrath blind and dumb, with no preconceived notions about what it was supposed to be. The world was great because we had to learn about it. We're also going to have to learn about this world, too, but we're going to have nostalgic locations and characters to help us along the way.

This highlights much of my mixed feelings. On the one hand, I don't feel that dark elf horns (not DE horns. DE is me.) Pass my thresholf of annoying changes, nor do pantheon changes. Combined with the "you play a bunch of classes" thing, though, it might. My annoyance with 4e was a combination of equal parts the atrocious mechanics (for pnp d&d) plus the butchry of the FR setting. I don't feel like EQN is near that level, but it also will compete for my time with TESO so.. its something to think about.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

The fact that this is a reboot does not clear the development team of any and all expectations held over from EQ. Sony is attempting to sell us EQ. It says so right there in the name. Sure, they have "reasons" why the dark elves of this variation of Norrath have horns. That doesn't make them good reasons. In fact, it is far more likely that the development team has a stupid reason for the change - a stupid reason that is much more far-reaching than just the appearance of one PC race.

That is the concern, not the horns.

That is Raltar's concern about the pantheon.

Not that the change happened without reason, but that the reason is stupid, and leads to even more stupid things that we just haven't heard about, yet.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

It seems like you're not clearing the development team of *any* expectations held over from EQ.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

I'm reluctant to assume too much in that regard. While its possible there are a lot of stupid changes, there also might not be or at least they might not be stupid. On the face of it dark elf horns do not bode well, but I am also not prepared to make sweeping assumptions of stupid changes on that basis. I should also point out that playerbases can be mighty picky, and some people will claim that simple updates in quality are"not EQ".

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

The sales pitch is, "We are making EQ Next." That conjures up certain memories, certain feelings, certain images, and certain desires among people who played EQ during its run. The burden is not on me, or Raltar, or Kaffis, or Lenas, or any of us here to relax our expectations of what constitutes EQ for the benefit of the new development team. The burden is on the development team to deliver an experience that takes us back home to the world we all loved ten years ago.

If the development team wanted their own brand new world where they could take any artistic direction they wanted, they could have done so. They instead chose to go with an existing world, and with an existing world comes baggage. Things look and feel a certain way in that world. Take the kobold. In Dungeons & Dragons, they are reptilian critters that are supposedly the bastard spawn of dragons several generations removed. In EverQuest, they're dog-looking things. Kobolds looked like this:



If you start playing EQ Next, you expect to see something like this:



If you instead see this:



You start to feel like you're not playing in Norrath. It's fine to have kobolds that look like that. You can make a good game out of kobolds that look that way. Deekin was a beloved character in Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark, but Deekin belongs in Faerun, and not in Norrath.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

And you think that dark elves having small horns is the same thing as changing canine kobolds to draconic kobolds?

You honestly seem to be making a huge mountain range out of a poorly sighted molehill that may or may not actually even be a molehill.

And also, while I agree that the dev team has to live up to expectations, it will be absolutely impossible for them to live up to every past EQ players pet peeve as far as some tiny detail that may be changed.

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Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.

Scroll back several posts. You keep talking about this change being a small, insignificant thing, and me making a mountain out of a molehill. If that's the case, why make the change in the first place? If it's a minor, insignificant change, then just use the existing model. If it's a minor, insignificant change, then it serves no purpose and you shouldn't do it. It is different for the sake of being different, when the goal implied by the name of the product was to sell customers on a familiar world they love.

That's what several of you don't seem to understand. If these are minor insignificant changes, then why do them at all? Isn't the point of this project to reboot EverQuest? If you're trying to do that, then you don't make minor insignificant changes to the art style and the setting. It's not a good idea. It makes your audience feel like they're not looking at the familiar world they were hoping to see.

It would be one thing for me to try to sell you on Adventures in Corotopia, and I showed you a picture of a dark elf and said, "In order to differentiate my world from EverQuest, World of Warcraft, and Dungeons & Dragons, my dark elves have demon blood which gives them horns and a tail." My goal there is to have a different spin on dark elves, so that you wouldn't feel like you were seeing a rehash of every other game you ever played that had dark elves. The whole purpose is to be different, because I want to stand out against these other products.

Now let's say I'm trying to produce World of Warcraft: Reloaded. I show you a picture of a night elf, and it's green. I could maybe sell you on that by explaining to you how in the revamped version of Azeroth, night elves have a closer connection with the Emerald Dream. Then I show you goblins with tails. You observe that goblins have never had tails in Warcraft before, and I reply that there are reasons. You are then expected to accept that, because it's a reboot and it's not the Azeroth you know. It's a new Azeroth, with a new vision, and things are going to be different.

Goblins with tails are jarring if you're expecting Azeroth. It's a different world than what you're used to. But wait, wasn't I trying to capitalize on the fact that you love Warcraft to sell you this new game? Sure, I can go on and on about a reboot, and a new Azeroth, and how it's just a minor change, but none of that matters. If I'm trying to sell you on my version of Azeroth, I need to avoid things that are jarring to you unless there's a compelling reason for the change. That means I don't do things purely to make it different and new. Goblins with tails have to go, no matter how much my artist might want to draw them. Green elves are different, because once you hear why they're green, you're done talking about elves. You're going to start asking me questions about the Emerald Dream.

Let's back it up a bit and take this from the top.

Picture hits. It looks pretty cool, it's a reasonably faithful representation of the original box art. There are a few differences that pop out. Some look neat, some look curious, and some look like some artist trying to make a name for himself and show you it's a new artist with a new vision.

"They said there are reasons why dark elves have horns."

This is not an exact quote, but something like this has come up twice in the thread. I think Lenas said it both times. That's great. What are these reasons that "they" profess to have? Take a look at the other picture for comparison. Dark elves don't have horns in any EQ I've ever played, so I'm going to need to hear these reasons.

The developer could have said something like, "Well, in the original Norrath, a group of elves were kidnapped by Innoruuk, who tortured and twisted them to his own dark image. That never happened in this timeline. Instead, this chain of events here leads to this elven prince and his retinue drawing the wrath of Fennin Ro. The result is similar, and the dark elves are born, but they're cast in the image of the Tyrant of Fire rather than the Prince of Hate. For the same reason, the city of Neriak is going to be in the Lavastorm Mountains rather than Nektulos Forest."

That's what it looks like when you actually have a reason for an artistic change. That also hooks some customers by showing us what's different from the world we know and love, while still making us feel like it's Norrath. Instead, "they" have simply claimed to have "reasons." Company representatives try to sell potential customers a line of bullshit all the time. Since those reasons are not forthcoming, we can chuck that statement as being totally worthless. That brings us back to some artist deciding his dark elves have horns because horns look cool.

The picture that paints is typical major studio bullshit where they take an IP they own and slap it on whatever product they're cooking up in order to snow a fanbase and move units.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

There is no one here that "doesn't understand" anything. We all understand just fine. We're just not gettingthat worked up over things yet. We don't know the extent of the changes, how final they might be, or the reasons and the fact that they haven't explained the reasons does not automatically mean that the reasons are bad or amount to artistic shennanigans. Some of us are just not ready to get that worked up about it yet. I tend to hate lore changes, but this really does not blow my skirt up. For all I know the lore is better this way. Lore was never EQs strong point anyhow; certainly not in the way WoW had it.

Im far more concerned with whether they can make the mechanics new and interesting. If I find its yet another progression-raidfest populated entirely by "competitive" raiders who are more interested in their Ventrilo, damage meter, and spreadsheet than the adventure, then all the lore in the world won't help.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

So basically you're just mad and writing a lot to express that you wish SOE would release all of the information they have on the game already. That's not going to happen, we're still over a year out.



This is straight up retarded. "They" are the developers and original designers of EverQuest, not PR people spinning ****. Moreover, your assertion of no information coming is also bull crap, because they're making more announcements at Gamescom and at PAX.

IP's change and morph over time. There's nothing wrong with that.

When D&D turned into AD&D, it upset some people. When D&D changed Devils and Demons to Tanari, it upset some people. When D&D moved away from THAC0 and also let any race be any class, it upset some people. When D&D introduced class roles, it upset some people. It was still always D&D, regardless of what some people thought.

Hell, there were some people who didn't like the radical shift that Blizzard made with Orcs in Warcraft 3 compared to the previous 2 games.

Some people will always ***** about change. It's ironically the one thing that will always remain constant.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

That post might have come off harsher than intended. If so, I apologize. It was more about my opinion that change isn't bad, and change doesn't necessarily mean it's an entirely new thing.

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Les Zombis et les Loups-Garous!

So I've been watching some of the videos, and I'm less concerned about the multi-class thing now.

It seems that the setup really allows a lot of flexibility, while preserving the essence of a particular class. Here's my understanding:

If my current active class is a Warrior, then that locks my 4 weapons skills (based on what of the warrior allowed weapon I have equiped) and also determines my combat animation and allowable armor. However, my 4 character abilities are flexible within the slot types of the Warrior class. So I can add flavor to the warrior by pulling in maybe a Ranger ability or Rogue ability but the essence of my combat abilities are still very much the Warrior.