The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:40 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:36 am
Posts: 3083
Posted without comment. I just think it's interesting and timely:

At today’s Proposition 8 oral argument, Justice Scalia asked Ted Olson, the lawyer for the plaintiffs, “when did it become unconstitutional to exclude homosexual couples from marriage? 1791? 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted?” The intuition behind Scalia’s question is that if a law would not have been unconstitutional on the day the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, it cannot be unconstitutional under that Amendment at all.

But the latter doesn’t necessarily follow from the former. Laws that are constitutional at Time X can easily be unconstitutional at Time Y if relevant factual circumstances have changed. This is true not only under “living Constitution” theories, but even under originalism.

[Remainder of article spoilered for length (though it's not really TLDR territory).]

Spoiler:
I. Originalism and Changing Circumstances.

How could this be so? Whether a law violates original meaning of the Constitution depends not just on the words of the text, but on relevant factual circumstances. For example, the Fourth Amendment bans “unreasonable” searches and seizures. Whether a search is reasonable depends at least in part on the state of technology, the likelihood that the search will catch a criminal, and other factual circumstances. As technology changes and our knowledge increases, a search that could be considered reasonable at Time A might not be reasonable at Time B, even though the meaning of the Fourth Amendment has not changed at all.

The constitutionality of sex discrimination is a particularly telling example. Steven Calabresi and Julia Rickert have shown that the original meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment constrains discrimination against women if that discrimination lacked a compelling rationale beyond a desire to subordinate them as an inferior “caste.” But 19th century understandings of biology and social science led most people to believe that a wide range of laws discriminating against women were constitutional because they were rational responses to fundamental differences between the sexes. Today, much of the factual understanding of the 19th century has been discredited, with the result that many laws that perhaps could legitimately be upheld in the 1870s are now unconstitutional. I expounded on this point in greater detail here:

Quote:
[In Bradwell v. State (1873)], three justices upheld the exclusion of women [from the legal profession] despite the general principle of occupational freedom under the Privileges and Immunities Clause, based on their factual understanding of women’s “characteristics, destiny, and mission.” If that factual understanding turns out to be wrong, they could no longer argue that the power to discriminate against women in this way would fall under “the police power of the State” and would be required to strike the law down.....

Thus, the legal rule [Justice] Bradley advocated would compel a different outcome in any similar case today. Originalism requires judges to apply the legal rules established by the framers. But it doesn’t require them to perpetuate factual errors in the evaluation of evidence used to determine how the rule applies to any given case. Assume that in 1873 a regulation were upheld based on scientific evidence derived from the popular 19th century theory of phrenology, which held that people’s abilities and character could be predicted based on the shape of their skulls. For example, a state could have enacted a law forbidding a person with the wrong type of skull to become a lawyer. Later research proves that phrenology is a bogus pseudoscience. A consistent originalist judge would overrule the 1873 decision if legislatures continued to enact statutes claiming a police power rationale for curtailing occupational freedom based on phrenological evidence. The same goes for statutes that restrict constitutional rights based on discredited nineteenth century factual assumptions about women. [emphasis added]

II. Implications for Same-Sex Marriage.

As I have previously argued, laws banning same-sex marriage discriminate on the basis of gender, much like 19th century laws banning women from various occupations. For many decades, the state of our knowledge was such that it seemed inconceivable that same-sex couples could raise children, form committed long-term relationships, play a stabilizing role in society, and otherwise carry out the various functions associated with opposite-sex marriages. Today, however, we know that these assumptions are false or at least greatly overstated. Just as we now know that women can be effective lawyers and that phrenology is bogus.

We may not be able to pinpoint the exact date when knowledge advanced to the point that courts were justified in striking down laws excluding women from various occupations. I would tentatively say it happened soon after various states first allowed women to enter many professions in the late 19th century, and experience quickly showed that no great disaster occurred as a result. Still, a good case can be made for a different date. But all a court needs to know is that the relevant date occurred sometime before the day when it has to make a decision in the case before it. And what is true of other forms of sex discrimination is also true of laws banning same-sex marriage.

Finally, I recognize that originalism is far from the only theory of constitutional interpretation. I myself do not believe that it should be the only factor courts take into account. In this post, I focus on originalism because I think it obvious that most “living Constitution” theories readily allow for situations where a law that is initially constitutional becomes unconstitutional over time.

UPDATE: The above analysis could potentially be reformulated as saying that laws banning same-sex marriage were unconstitutional as soon as the the Fourteenth Amendment was enacted in 1868, but people just didn’t have enough knowledge to figure it out until much later. But, for purposes of judicial review, the key issue is when real-world courts had enough evidence to justify striking down a law like Proposition 8. And that time could easily be later than the point at which a court with perfect information would have been justified in doing so.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:10 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
And Ilya Somin continues to demonstrate a woefully inaccurate understanding of the word 'gender'.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:59 am
Posts: 3879
Location: 63368
I don't see homosexuals being excluded. I know that having the opinion that there's already equal protection under the law isn't popular here, but that's how I see it.


My sister and I are equally protected in our right to bear arms. I chose to exercise that right, she doesn't, but that doesn't mean she's excluded, and she can't just go redefining what "arms" are to include a hand grenade if that's how she's inclined.


Now, my opinion really doesn't matter. I've become a grandfather not too long ago and my views on life have changed radically. Used to be, I had to fight to get what was right to make the world make sense to me. Then later, I had to fight to get what's right for a world my kids could grow in, to make sense for them. I don't have to fight anymore, I got all I need. It's the next generations turn. Let my sons and daughter fight to shape their world for them and their kids, I'll be just fine. So if folks want to allow homosexual marriage, or polygamy, or whatever, you just go right ahead.

_________________
In time, this too shall pass.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:26 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Taskiss wrote:
... and she can't just go redefining what "arms" are to include a hand grenade if that's how she's inclined.
It already includes hand grenades; the people running around willy-nilly trying to redefine the word "arms" (as in "armaments"), well ...

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:28 pm 
Offline
Web Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:32 pm
Posts: 8248
Location: The Tunt Mansion
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

- T. Jefferson


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:39 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Lenas:

Unfortunately, taking Jefferson out of context provides just as many examples of statements the other way. But, I wonder, what has all this anti-gun rhetoric really done for us? Evidence suggests it created easy target zones.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:40 pm 
Offline
Web Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:32 pm
Posts: 8248
Location: The Tunt Mansion
I think the comment holds weight regardless of context. From gun laws to sexuality.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:51 pm 
Offline
Evil Bastard™
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am
Posts: 7542
Location: Doomstadt, Latveria
Lenas wrote:
I think the comment holds weight regardless of context. From gun laws to sexuality.
I'm not sure Jefferson would agree with you there ...
Quote:
Every so often the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants.
The Second Amendment didn't really have any holdouts, and the vast majority of our Navy was privately owned for a very long time.

_________________
Corolinth wrote:
Facism is not a school of thought, it is a racial slur.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:06 pm 
Offline
Web Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:32 pm
Posts: 8248
Location: The Tunt Mansion
I'm not saying I agree with everything the guy ever said. I do think it's interesting that it was written by someone who helped form our constitution, but I think the idea would hold the same weight said by anyone else, with or without context. We cannot forever hold ourselves to the thoughts and ideology of those that came before us. There has to be room for change on a group level, as the individual makeup of the group itself changes.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:20 pm 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Again Homosexuals have equal access to marriage as marriage is defined, therefore even if homosexuals are a protected class, it wouldn't apply.

Also I think the terms male and female still mean what they've always meant in a biological sense as well. They should be subject to equal protection under the law (see paragraph 1), but that does not make them the same thing.

Should society promote marriage through tax breaks, preferred status, etc is a separate issue, unrelated to equal protection under the law. Personally I would say yes it produces the best and most conducive environment for child rearing. However I'd be happy with limiting that to the state/local level.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:36 am
Posts: 4320
Rorinthas wrote:
Personally I would say yes it produces the best and most conducive environment for child rearing.


This position is not supported by, you know, facts.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:58 pm 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
I disagree, but its not my job to write research papers for you. I think children being raised by their mother and father under one roof is best for them, and there is research to support that (again see sentence one). Maybe supporting marriage isn't the best way to do that, but what would you propose.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:12 pm
Posts: 2366
Location: Mook's Pimp Skittle Stable
And there is additional research showing that it's being raised by two parents that is best for children, and it doesn't effect matters at all if it's two mothers, two fathers, or one mother and one father.

And you could also argue that every gay couple that has children really, truly wanted them, as opposed to "normal" couples to whom they might have been complete accidents, happy or unhappy.

And I think we could all agree that being raised by two parents who wanted them is better than being raised by two parents who didn't, right?

_________________
Darksiege: You are not a god damned vulcan homie.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:14 am 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Sure. I would think that the majority of "accidents" happen to couples who aren't married.

I would still argue that being raised by your own parents who are committed to each other is "best," but there are a lot of degrees between that.

Again I see the argument for that being not the business of the federal government. I'd be very happy with something like the Fair Tax at the federal level.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:53 am 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9449
Location: Your Dreams
The main issues are stability. Studies have shown that children from stable two-parent families fare better than children from single-parent families or families that break up.

There is no question that same-sex relationships are historically less stable than heterosexual married relationships. Of course, you have to wonder about cause and effect. The fact that so many societies refuse to recognize same-sex relationships as just as legitimate as heterosexual relationships takes its toll on those relationships. It is emotionally draining and incredibly difficult to deal with constant prejudice.

Despite that prejudice, it is remarkable that in cases where the stability is there, children in stable families fair equally well regardless of the makeup of that family.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:57 am 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
That's just pro-gay propaganda someone told you to support your immoral lifestyle.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:45 am 
Offline
God of the IRC
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:35 pm
Posts: 3041
Location: The United States of DESU
http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/ ... riage.aspx

Quote:
Research has shown that marriage provides substantial psychological and physical health benefits due to the moral, economic and social support extended to married couples. Conversely, recent empirical evidence has illustrated the harmful psychological effect of policies restricting marriage rights for same-sex couples. Additionally, children raised by same-sex couples have been shown to be on par with the children of opposite-sex couples in their psychological adjustment, cognitive abilities and social functioning.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
Rorinthas wrote:
Should society promote marriage through tax breaks, preferred status, etc is a separate issue, unrelated to equal protection under the law. Personally I would say yes it produces the best and most conducive environment for child rearing. However I'd be happy with limiting that to the state/local level.

Then, clearly, all childless couples and empty nesters are exploiting tax loopholes that need to be closed.

This is why I think the government should butt out of marriage entirely and not recognize it at all. If the goal is to promote stable, two-parent family units, then we need to recognize child-rearing tax breaks for cohabiting adults filing together.

If we want to promote cohabitation as a blanket rule (because it's economically and ecologically more efficient.. green, if you will), then roommates and communal arrangements need to be extended the tax incentives, as well, and romantic entanglement/sexual orientation needs to be taken out of the equation.

If we want to lubricate the bureaucratic process for things like inheritance, medical visitation/decision-making, etc., then limiting it to romantic partners is likewise discriminatory against singles (and, in addition, automatically granting it to romantic/domestic partners probably troublesome in some circumstances, e.g. domestic abuse). I've never been married, but I'd give all my "married benefits" in regards to visitation and medical power of attorney to my brother in a heartbeat. In fact, I've done so for most of it (though I imagine hospital policies on visitation and whatnot would still not grant him the flexibility they would for a spouse), via an avenue that was trivially expensive and relatively hassle-free, and open to gays in a committed relationship.

Etc.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:07 am 
Offline
pbp Hack
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:45 pm
Posts: 7585
Or we could just have a flat tax and collect revenue as opposed to saying anything about any behaviors.

I'd be down with that.

_________________
I prefer to think of them as "Fighting evil in another dimension"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9412
Yep.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group