The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Fri Nov 22, 2024 4:20 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:36 am
Posts: 4320
Ienan wrote:
Aizle wrote:
Ienan wrote:
And Aizle isn't describing correctly what a theory is.


I'm curious where you feel that I'm being incorrect.

Fair enough. Let's look at your post.

Aizle wrote:
And really, it comes down to the scientific method. There are no "facts" in science the old saying goes. So while I believe that HIGW exists, and believe that most of the science points to it, it's still at the end of the day our best understanding of the situation, based on imperfect data.

I think that might be some of the confusion. Monty's rabid commentary aside, it's usually assumed when talking about any scientific conclusions that they are all theories. Hell, even tho gravity is very accepted and taken for granted, it is still a theory.

Your description of a theory is a really a hypothesis. A scientific conclusion is just one of many steps in the scientific process. A theory is an observable phenomenon that has a large body of evidence that supports said hypothesis and rejects many of the alternate hypotheses. A key element of a theory is the reproduction of experimental data using a highly related (preferably the same) procedure, which is a significant flaw in HIGCC. Since HIGCC data uses sophsicated computer models that predict (which is a major flaw since using predictive models require assumptions), it's nearly impossible to reproduce results. It's also difficult to reproduce temperature results since the variability (an element to avoid in scientific research) is great. Another great flaw of HIGCC is that it's difficult to observe. You can certainly observe climate change, but concluding it's due to humans would require more evidence that's hard to obtain due to the number of variables in an open environment, such as the Earth.

Gravitation is a theory, but the force of gravity is not. Gravity exists. It could cease to exist tomorrow or it may be a combination of other forces as we may find later. Both theories and laws embody gravitation. By the way, just because something is a theory doesn't make it any less true than a scientific law. A scientific law is just a way to describe a mechanism, generally through mathematical principles but it could also be verbal, that must apply under the same conditions everytime. Also, instead of using deductive reasoning as you do with theories, laws require inductive reasoning, which is why they're often backed by mathematical proofs. Laws can be disproven as well and indeed they have been or limited to certain conditions only. For instance, many of Newton's Laws have been limited to certain conditions, such as low gravitation, at low velocities, etc.


I think I just wasn't as clear in my post as I should have been. I don't actually describe what a theory is other than to call what we define as gravity as a theory. What I meant by that is that while the observable effects of "gravity" are there and very repeatable, our definition of "gravity" is a theory. i.e. this is how we think it works, etc. As you point out, we may figure out tomorrow that our understanding of gravity is flawed, or comprised of other things. Much like Newton's Laws have been refined and found to be incomplete or only true within certain circumstances.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:03 pm 
Offline
Lean, Mean, Googling Machine
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:35 am
Posts: 2903
Location: Maze of twisty little passages, all alike
Heh. Even the simple, venerated Newtonian theory of gravity has obvious issues, at least in it's application -- the n-body problem being a prime example.

_________________
Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5716
Stathol wrote:
Heh. Even the simple, venerated Newtonian theory of gravity has obvious issues, at least in it's application -- the n-body problem being a prime example.


Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:36 am
Posts: 4320
XKCD rocks.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:18 pm 
Offline
adorabalicious
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:54 am
Posts: 5094
Speaking of peer review:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/29/yamal_scandal/

_________________
"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:25 pm 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5866
Ienan wrote:
For instance, many of Newton's Laws have been limited to certain conditions, such as low gravitation, at low velocities, etc.
Newton's laws are the first term in the Taylor series expansion of the same laws as acquired through derivations that take into account quantum effects.

As for the N-body problem, Newton's laws fail there because Newton's laws were all experimentally derived in a three-dimensional co-ordinate space. Newton's laws famously don't work in two dimensions because any force is, at a certain distance, divided among the total surface area of the space at that particular distance. As a result, the r^2 terms that generally appear on the denominator of any force equation have to be replaced with r for a two dimensional system.

However, it's worth pointing out that, as the current time, we still don't have a "real space" that extends into any dimensions above or below three.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:08 pm 
Offline
The King
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:34 am
Posts: 3219
http://cei.org/news-release/2009/10/05/ ... imate-data

_________________
"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:26 pm 
Offline
Deuce Master

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:45 am
Posts: 3099
That would be nice. I bet that would put a stop to Cap'N'Tax.

_________________
The Dude abides.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:01 pm 
Offline
Homeric Hero
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 290
Corolinth wrote:
However, it's worth pointing out that, as the current time, we still don't have a "real space" that extends into any dimensions above or below three.


Maybe the human brain is only intelligent enough to create a 3d macroscopic model... as well as understanding the progression of time.

A non-3d model of reality would allow you to "see" around corners that 3d-focused people cannot see around.

_________________
"The map is not the territory."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:06 pm 
Offline
Homeric Hero
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 290
Interestingly... a strong concept of time and rationalizing your memory does let you make predictions about what is around corners... it seems the more experienced and intelligent you are, the more you can see past 3d obstructions through prediction. I wonder what the extreme of this would be.

_________________
"The map is not the territory."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:12 pm 
Offline
Homeric Hero
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:03 am
Posts: 290
It seems the more intelligent and experienced you are, the more you live in 4d land and not 3d land... at the extreme you are omniscient and can move forward and back in time at your whim, know where everything is located, and know everything that has happened and will happen. Everyone lives somewhere between 3d land and 4d land. Your memory and your future predictions can make time a more solid dimension.

_________________
"The map is not the territory."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:14 am 
Offline
The Game Master.
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:01 pm
Posts: 3729
Monte wrote:
Aizle wrote:

I think that might be some of the confusion. Monty's rabid commentary aside, it's usually assumed when talking about any scientific conclusions that they are all theories. Hell, even tho gravity is very accepted and taken for granted, it is still a theory.



There is nothing "rabid" what so ever about my commentary, and I am insulted at the implication that it might be. Every major scientific organization *on the planet* stands behind my position. Every single one of them. Every objection to that science has been either debunked, or has been shown to be motivated and funded by parties with a vested interest in avoiding regulation. Something being a Theory does not mean it's not a reality. Pick up your pen and drop it 1000 times. Tell me that gravity does not affect the pen. A theory is the best understanding of the subject at hand we currently have.

The case for HIGCC has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We take the lives of our citizens based on less compelling evidence than what exists for global warming. We go to war and take tens of thousands of lives based on less compelling evidence than what exists to support HIGCC. People on this board believe in dieties and support legislation based on the teachings of said diety with *significantly* less evidence than what supports global warming. People on this board take absolute faith in an economic theory that has never actually even been tested in the real world than in HIGCC. It's preposterous.

If you are looking for rabidity, you need look no further than the people that ignore the overwhelming consensus in favor of the unsupported nipping at the margins from people with a vested, financial interest in the status quo.

This post has been reported for containing a flame on multiple board posters. This is essentially a well-poison argument.

Please direct any arguments you may have over the issue at hand at specific posters, preferably in a non-flame manner.

_________________
“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 62 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 206 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group