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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:18 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
I still don't get it. Assuming Solyndra was doing very well, that would be 550million, for 1,100 jobs. WTF.



It is 1,100 secured votes. Its 1,100 faces for political ads showing that "something" as done. The cost doesn't matter because it isn't coming out of their personal bank accounts or their campaign accounts.

This is how politicians work. Every day in every way.

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 Post subject: Re: Solyndra
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:21 pm 
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This guy says it's all about getting the stimulus money dispersed. They didnt care about efficient, they just wanted to get money out there.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/ ... les?page=2

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But putting all that aside, Bilbray is astonished that no one appears to have second-guessed the decision to build a new facility in the first place, which he calls “absurd.” With the number of Bay-Area start-ups constantly in flux, and with businesses “fleeing the state” in search of more favorable economic conditions, there is no shortage of facilities available to be rented or retrofitted to accommodate even high-tech companies like Solyndra.

Bilbray suspects that costs weren’t taken into account in this case because, as far as the administration was concerned, cost wasn’t an issue. “Part of the reason it was chosen was as more stimulus,” he says. “Which means we don’t worry about the cost-effectiveness. Throwing money at the economic crisis is an answer in itself. The taxpayer should be really nervous about that.”

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:24 pm 
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So, basically, what most of the board has been saying since before the Stimulus was passed...

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:04 pm 
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I'm past nervousness and into dull acceptance.

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 Post subject: Re: Solyndra
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:39 am 
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http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/from-scand ... ree-weeks/

Good read.

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 Post subject: Re: Solyndra
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:11 am 
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Meh, I don't see there being much in the way of corruption on this deal; just poor judgment and excessive enthusiasm. After all, the government went in for $550 million, but private investors went in for roughly twice that, so it's kind of inconsistent to think the government's involvement could only be due to corruption rather than good-faith, but ultimately mistaken, business judgment. It's also worth remembering that this really isn't a ridiculous amount of money in context. DOE backs something like $40 billion in loans, most of it in coal, gas and nukes, and the numbers for other government-backed loan programs are even higher. Hell, I've personally worked on multiple deals with hundreds of millions of dollars in government guarantees and/or direct loans (some US, some non-US), and I'm a very, very small cog in a very, very big machine.

At the end of the day, I suspect this was just a classic example of investors and lenders (in this case, DOE) convincing themselves that if they just threw a bunch of upfront money at something innovative, it'd pay off down the road, combined with some added time pressure because of the stimulus and the political optics and cool factor of "green energy/jobs".

*ETA that I'm not saying there was definitely no impropriety involved; in fact, I'm sure there was. I just don't see much to suggest that whatever "unofficial channels" might have been involved were out of the ordinary or the driving force behind the deal.


Last edited by RangerDave on Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:15 am 
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What are your thoughts on the Gunwalker issue RD?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:19 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
What are your thoughts on the Gunwalker issue RD?

Not familiar with that one. Is that the thing where ATF was selling guns to Mexican drug cartels as part of some elaborate (and seemingly very incompetent) sting operation?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:21 am 
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Yep.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:31 am 
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Those private investors?

Quote:
Billionaire philanthropist and entrepreneur George Kaiser has come under scrutiny for his possible role in a complex investment scandal involving California solar company Solyndra, the White House and two of Kaiser’s investment firms.

It’s a complicated story, and one that’s still unfolding.

The short of it: In 2009, Solyndra received $527 million dollars in loan guarantees from the Federal Financing Bank/U.S. Treasury. So when the firm filed bankruptcy on Wednesday, citing an inability to compete with its Chinese rivals, the FBI responded by raiding the company. From Thomson-Reuters:

The search comes amid intensifying pressure on the Obama administration, which championed Solyndra as being at the forefront of solar technology when President Barack Obama visited the company’s Fremont, California, facility in 2010.

“We are executing search warrants at Solyndra regarding a joint FBI and Department of Energy Office of Inspector General investigation,” Julianne Sohn of the FBI said in an email.

Here’s where Kaiser enters the picture. From MuniLand:

Two of Solyndra’s largest investors are Argonaut Ventures I, L.L.C. and the GKFF Investment Company, LLC. Both firms are represented on the Solyndra board of directors by Steven R. Mitchell (see Solyndra S-1 page 119). Both are investment vehicles of the George Kaiser Family Foundation of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

According to the Daily Caller, Kaiser was present at the White House 16 of the 20 times Solyndra officials and investors visited.

The insinuation is that Kaiser, an Obama donor, may have had undue influence in convincing the Obama Administration to invest $500 million in an unproven upstart energy company.

To further complicate things: according to MuniLand, Solyndra’s financing documents were re-written in February of this year, re-prioritizing Kaiser’s Argonaut above the Department of Energy (as in, above the taxpayers) as the first in line to be repaid.

Kaiser, for his part, has denied any impropriety.


This is why the private investment angle is problematic.

http://thislandpress.com/roundups/george-kaiser-and-the-solyndra-investment-scandal/


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:46 am 
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Would there have been private investment if the government did not toss its hat in?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:57 am 
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Nitefox wrote:
Yep.

Ah. I'm afraid I don't know much about that whole thing beyond the "this obviously wasn't going to end well" perspective I mentioned. I'll poke around a bit later, but I'm guessing from the context of this thread that there's some suggestion of Obama Administration corruption/influence involved?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:04 pm 
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This made frontpage on the Drudgereport... this could be big.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:10 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
This is why the private investment angle is problematic.

Yeah, I read about that. I don't know if I'm a naif or a cynic, but I generally figure there's some baseline amount of extra access and influence that big money donors and/or business interests get, but that it rarely rises to the level of "Here's a big envelope of cash, Senator. Now, about those contracts...." For example, I have no doubt that Cheney's connections with Halliburton had an impact on Halliburton's level of access and thus its success in obtaining contractor work in Iraq; and I don't doubt that Paulson's Wall Street background influenced his decisions about how to handle the big banks with the TARP bailout. Likewise, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Solyndra had a better shot at securing government backing because Kaiser was able to bend the President's ear about this great new solar project he was working on.

I guess I just don't think of that sort of thing as "corruption", per se, as long as the ultimate decision that gets made is reasonable on its own merits. Even without their extra connections, Halliburton would have been on every shortlist for Iraq construction projects; Goldman Sachs would have received TARP funds; and Solyndra would have been in the running for DOE support. So, absent some pretty compelling evidence of true quid pro quo, I tend not to get too worked up about those sorts of defensible decisions.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Hannibal wrote:
Would there have been private investment if the government did not toss its hat in?

Hard to say. There's been some talk that government loans/guarantees can crowd out private lenders in some circumstances because the government has first priority in bankruptcy, so if the government wasn't there, maybe more private lenders would have come in, and we'd have ended up with similar levels of private equity investors as well. Alternatively, I've seen some reports that private lenders were staying away because they were wary of Solyndra's business projections, in which case, absent the government, there would have been no debt funding and the private investors probably would have stayed away.

Conceptually, though, the whole idea of government loans/guarantees is to fund things private lenders/investors are reluctant to get into and, ultimately, to draw that private debt/equity funding into the deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:25 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
This is why the private investment angle is problematic.

Yeah, I read about that. I don't know if I'm a naif or a cynic, but I generally figure there's some baseline amount of extra access and influence that big money donors and/or business interests get, but that it rarely rises to the level of "Here's a big envelope of cash, Senator. Now, about those contracts...." For example, I have no doubt that Cheney's connections with Halliburton had an impact on Halliburton's level of access and thus its success in obtaining contractor work in Iraq; and I don't doubt that Paulson's Wall Street background influenced his decisions about how to handle the big banks with the TARP bailout. Likewise, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Solyndra had a better shot at securing government backing because Kaiser was able to bend the President's ear about this great new solar project he was working on.

I guess I just don't think of that sort of thing as "corruption", per se, as long as the ultimate decision that gets made is reasonable on its own merits. Even without their extra connections, Halliburton would have been on every shortlist for Iraq construction projects; Goldman Sachs would have received TARP funds; and Solyndra would have been in the running for DOE support. So, absent some pretty compelling evidence of true quid pro quo, I tend not to get too worked up about those sorts of defensible decisions.


This is a reasonable position, overall. However, there was that Bush-era tabling of the loan. It wasn't until Obama got into office that it was resurrected and pushed through. This calls into question the "as long as the ultimate decision that gets made is reasonable on its own merits" basis for your argument. DOE under Bush did not think it was a wise investment, and they were correct.

I'm not saying it's corrupt either, but it looks very bad, and an investigation by the FBI seems warranted. Congress should also do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:21 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Conceptually, though, the whole idea of government loans/guarantees is to fund things private lenders/investors are reluctant to get into and, ultimately, to draw that private debt/equity funding into the deal.

In this case, though, the private lending charge was lead by an individual who was pretty deep in bed, it seems, with both the administration and Solyndra, and who, less than a year after the gov't loan was made, got his investment prioritized over the gov't.

Sounds like he was arranging for the gov't to buy capital that could be sold off in bankruptcy for him to recoup his losses if Solyndra didn't pan out, to me.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
In this case, though, the private lending charge was lead by an individual who was pretty deep in bed, it seems, with both the administration and Solyndra, and who, less than a year after the gov't loan was made, got his investment prioritized over the gov't.

Yeah, a couple partners at my firm were speculating about that the other day. They were pretty surprised DOE agreed to it, and more to the point, that DOE's outside counsel (MoFo) let them agree to it. The upshot of their speculation was that DOE was probably trying to induce additional private debt to come in (and thereby keep the company afloat) by letting the new debt take priority, but that it was a really stupid move at that point in the deal, given how likely bankruptcy was starting to look. Whether they did that because of wishful thinking or political pressure remains to be seen, of course.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:46 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
DOE's outside counsel (MoFo)


Wait... what?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Heh. Yep, Morrison Foerester. Such an unfortunate nickname. They've embraced it, though - here's their actual web address: http://www.mofo.com/ :thumbs:


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:18 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Would there have been private investment if the government did not toss its hat in?

Hard to say. There's been some talk that government loans/guarantees can crowd out private lenders in some circumstances because the government has first priority in bankruptcy, so if the government wasn't there, maybe more private lenders would have come in, and we'd have ended up with similar levels of private equity investors as well. Alternatively, I've seen some reports that private lenders were staying away because they were wary of Solyndra's business projections, in which case, absent the government, there would have been no debt funding and the private investors probably would have stayed away.

Conceptually, though, the whole idea of government loans/guarantees is to fund things private lenders/investors are reluctant to get into and, ultimately, to draw that private debt/equity funding into the deal.


Amazing as it may seem to a lot of people, Cheney probably had almost nothing to do with Haliburton's receipt of most contracts. A great many of the no-bid contracts were that way because they involved specialized requirements that only Haliburton had maintained the ability to meet.

It's much like contracts for nuclear-powered aircraft carriers. Newport News Shipbuilding (Now owned by Northrop Grumman) is the only company that can build these, and thus there is no point in competition; there will never be enough orders for such ships to allow for it. They have build every nuclear-powered carrier, and in fact every full sized carrier since Enterprise.

I believe much of the same applies to KBR for a great deal of other more mundane contractor work in Iraq. When the needs these companies and their contracts service arise, they are needed now, and it simply is not practicable for more than one company to maintain these capabilities. In the case of KBR, however, they already had a standing contract to provide support.

They also really do serve some decent chow.

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Last edited by Diamondeye on Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:53 am 
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Looks like the Solyndra execs won't testify before Congress:
Reuters
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Sept 20 (Reuters) - Solyndra LLC's chief executive and chief financial officer will invoke their Fifth Amendment rights and decline to answer any questions put to them at a Congressional hearing on Friday, according to letters from their attorneys obtained by Reuters.

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 Post subject: Re: Solyndra
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Makes sense. This thing has political grandstanding written all over it. Senators and Representatives using their subpoena power and "contempt of Congress" clubs to drag people before Congress and use them as props for the latest dog-and-pony show has always been a pet peeve of mine. You think there was a crime? Fine, let the Justice Department file charges. You want to shine a light on something you think is shameful but not illegal? Fine, get up on your soapbox. Just don't mix the two and use quasi-judicial powers to compel private citizens to come listen to you harangue them.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:08 pm 
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Umm, what public act of Congress doesn't have "political grandstanding written all over it"?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Their testimony won't be needed. Apparently there is no shortage of maltreated former employees who are lining up to whistleblow and offer testimony.

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