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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:40 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
I think where the issue is, and to be frank where most of them here come from, is that too many people on these boards view things as black and white. They attempt to apply something to everything and assume that it makes sense for everything.

I would agree, but I think in this case, the fault lies with letting personal bias dictate what you think is appropriate for two different, yet nearly identical, situations.

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Priests are people who are put into positions of fairly great power over their followers. They are setup by their various organizations as pillars of the community. Guides for both moral and spiritual issues, and in some cases supposedly blessed with divine authority. Because of those realities they have a higher standard that they need to hold themselves to.

Aside from the "divine" part, teachers have just as much power over their students, in particular at the younger ages, and typically have considerably more day to day contact with the children. Do you support whatever system of verification for priests to apply to teachers? Do you hold the NEA/Ed Depts just as culpable as you do the "Church"?

I suspect not, given your personal background.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Farther wrote:
Let's see.

A few religious folks are pedophiles, so let's condemn all religious folks. So,

A few humans are pedophiles, so let's condemn all of humanity.

That sounds reasonable.

No, I established a few pages back that it is just the Canadians that are despicable based on those criteria.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:02 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Aizle wrote:
I think where the issue is, and to be frank where most of them here come from, is that too many people on these boards view things as black and white. They attempt to apply something to everything and assume that it makes sense for everything.

I would agree, but I think in this case, the fault lies with letting personal bias dictate what you think is appropriate for two different, yet nearly identical, situations.

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Priests are people who are put into positions of fairly great power over their followers. They are setup by their various organizations as pillars of the community. Guides for both moral and spiritual issues, and in some cases supposedly blessed with divine authority. Because of those realities they have a higher standard that they need to hold themselves to.

Aside from the "divine" part, teachers have just as much power over their students, in particular at the younger ages, and typically have considerably more day to day contact with the children. Do you support whatever system of verification for priests to apply to teachers? Do you hold the NEA/Ed Depts just as culpable as you do the "Church"?

I suspect not, given your personal background.


You'd be wrong. I actually do support similar levels of review of teachers backgrounds and suitability.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Farther wrote:
Let's see.

A few religious folks are pedophiles, so let's condemn all religious folks. So,

A few humans are pedophiles, so let's condemn all of humanity.

That sounds reasonable.

No, I established a few pages back that it is just the Canadians that are despicable based on those criteria.


Oops, my bad. Maybe i wasn't paying attention, either.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:16 pm 
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A few religious folks are pedophiles, so let's condemn all religious folks.

Nobody here has done that. Condemning religious organizations is not the same as condemning the adherents to that religion.

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A few humans are pedophiles, so let's condemn all of humanity.

Lots of good reasons to condemn humanity. Pedophilia is only a small one.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Nobody here has done that. Condemning religious organizations is not the same as condemning the adherents to that religion.


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Well, the fact that people still haven't grown past participating en masse in this superstitious ritualistic nonsense...

Comes really close Monte.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:19 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Talya wrote:
Nobody here has done that. Condemning religious organizations is not the same as condemning the adherents to that religion.


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Well, the fact that people still haven't grown past participating en masse in this superstitious ritualistic nonsense...

Comes really close Monte.


That's not condemning the people for being members of religions that have a few pedophiles in their priesthood. That's a blanket condemnation of the belief in leprechauns and faeries, Santa Klaus and the Easter Bunny, oh, and the far less likely "God."

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:35 pm 
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Talya wrote:
That the church (catholic and otherwise) is a harmful force for human society now as it has been throughout history is undeniable to any logical and rational thinker. Any argument otherwise is nothing more than apologism at best. Being "bigoted against the church" is said like it's a bad thing. The church is a murdering, book-burning, child-abusing, rapist, tyrant and villain. I happen to be bigotted against murderers, book burners, child abusers, rapists, tyrants, and villains, I will freely admit--but such a statement is absurd. Everyone should be bigoted against such things. So don't expect any concessions in regard to the diabolical human organizations known as "religions."

I don't agree with all of Aizle's points here, but to make vague claims of bigotry or dishonesty is intellectually shameful of you and betrays a gross lack of willingness to engage in legitimate discourse. Aizle has said nothing that isn't worth thinking about, at the very least.


Sounds like a blanket indictment of the whole church to me, since as I understand it the church is made up of the people in it. You blanket-called "the church" murderers, book-burners, child-abusers, rapists, tyrants, and villians. So wiggle all you want to; I can read.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:38 pm 
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Talya wrote:
That's not condemning the people for being members of religions that have a few pedophiles in their priesthood. That's a blanket condemnation of the belief in leprechauns and faeries, Santa Klaus and the Easter Bunny, oh, and the far less likely "God."


I promise you are not as clever as you think you are.

Just because you are close-minded and can't consider things outside of what you can see right in front of your face, doesn't make others "unenlightened".


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:08 pm 
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Farther wrote:
Sounds like a blanket indictment of the whole church to me, since as I understand it the church is made up of the people in it. You blanket-called "the church" murderers, book-burners, child-abusers, rapists, tyrants, and villians.


A country is also made up of the people in it. Condemning the actions of a country and its government is not the same thing as condemning the people, last time I checked. If so, a whole lot of Anti-Bush and Anti-Obama screamers would be condemning themselves in the process.

Nevertheless, the above description is somewhat kind. The facts of history provide a far less flattering glimpse of the Church.


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So wiggle all you want to; I can read.


Not all that effectively, it would seem.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
I promise you are not as clever as you think you are.

Just because you are close-minded and can't consider things outside of what you can see right in front of your face, doesn't make others "unenlightened".


I can consider lots of things that aren't right in front of my face. What isn't worth considering is filling all the gaps in our scientific understanding, all the mystery in the universe around us, with contrived manmade myths. "We don't know how we got here? God must have done it." Science is the search to find answers where we have none. Religion just makes up stories that hinder that search for answers if people put stock in them. If there is a "God," you won't find Her in your churches or holy books. Science never pretends to have all the answers, but it's the only reasonable source of whatever answers we do have.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:33 pm 
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Talya wrote:
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So wiggle all you want to; I can read.


Not all that effectively, it would seem.


Well enough to recognize when someone is trying to pass off a load of horseshit as "near genius".


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:38 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
I promise you are not as clever as you think you are.

Just because you are close-minded and can't consider things outside of what you can see right in front of your face, doesn't make others "unenlightened".


I can consider lots of things that aren't right in front of my face. What isn't worth considering is filling all the gaps in our scientific understanding, all the mystery in the universe around us, with contrived manmade myths. "We don't know how we got here? God must have done it." Science is the search to find answers where we have none. Religion just makes up stories that hinder that search for answers if people put stock in them. If there is a "God," you won't find Her in your churches or holy books. Science never pretends to have all the answers, but it's the only reasonable source of whatever answers we do have.


Circular argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:39 pm 
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Farther wrote:
Talya wrote:
Quote:
So wiggle all you want to; I can read.


Not all that effectively, it would seem.


Well enough to recognize when someone is trying to pass off a load of horseshit as "near genius".


Such a viewpoint is better for your self-esteem than anything remotely based on reality, so good for you. Your emotional health is likely more important to you than actually being right. On that note, you should also look into finding Jesus.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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Last edited by Talya on Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:45 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Circular argument.



If you think that, you missed something in that post. My argument was that only science bothers to look for what's not right in front of our faces. Religion does not look, it just makes up stories to pretend it found it.

While the existence of God cannot be (and never will be) disproven, specific religious myth has been disproven so utterly and so often that religions have to either stick their head in the sand and ignore science altogether, or spend time daily relabelling portions of their holy books as allegory.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:40 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Circular argument.


If you think that, you missed something in that post. My argument was that only science bothers to look for what's not right in front of our faces. Religion does not look, it just makes up stories to pretend it found it.


There's the circular argument. You don't know that religion does anything of the sort; you're basing it on your premise that there is no God in the first place.

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While the existence of God cannot be (and never will be) disproven, specific religious myth has been disproven so utterly and so often that religions have to either stick their head in the sand and ignore science altogether, or spend time daily relabelling portions of their holy books as allegory.


Horseshit. The only thing that's ever bee disproven is the literality of the stories in question, and the disproof has been anything but "often". Understanding that a certain story is allegory is not "relabelling"; it's gaining a better understanding of it.

You're just engaging in the typical game of trying to create conflict between religion and science where none exists because you have issues with religion.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:46 pm 
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Talya wrote:
Science never pretends to have all the answers, but it's the only reasonable source of whatever answers we do have.

Science doesn't provide answers, ever. When done right, it provides evidence.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:29 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
There's the circular argument. You don't know that religion does anything of the sort; you're basing it on your premise that there is no God in the first place.

Not at all. There are hundreds of major dogma differences between various denominations within Christendom alone. Christianity is just one of several major religions and dozens of others currently existing, thousands and perhaps millions throughout history. Each has at least a slightly different God (many of them major differences) that they use to fill in the gaps with entirely different stories. If you don't accept that they're made up, then you accept that thousands of entirely contradictory and mutually exclusive religious dogmas are all "right." If you believe only one particular one is right, then the vast majority --the rest of them-- are still completely made up bullshit. Unsurprisingly, just like there is no logical or empirical evidence of the existence of God, there is also no logical or empirical way to tell one religion from another as far as possible veracity. They're all equally likely (or unlikely) to be correct. Even for the religious person, there's no way to know, apart from randomly picking whichever one feels best to you and hoping your God both exists, and isn't very picky about people choosing the right version of his religion...

No matter which way you view it, Religion randomly tries to fill in the gaps with bullshit and claims to know the answer. Science alone admits what we don't know and tries to make sense of it all.

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Horseshit. The only thing that's ever bee disproven is the literality of the stories in question, and the disproof has been anything but "often". Understanding that a certain story is allegory is not "relabelling"; it's gaining a better understanding of it.


Creation myth filled with impossibilities? 900 year old people? Angels having sex with women and having hybrid giant offspring? A deluge covering the entire earth while millions of discrete species are preserved in a wooden box?

Oh, but we're not limited to Genesis.
-Seven different bible writers wrote that the sky had a solid roof ("Firmament").
-It wouldn't be fair to pick on th LSD Trip known as the Revelation to John, widely described as entirely symbolic even before science got involved.
-They couldn't even get simple math right. 2 Chronicles 4:2, providing exact measurements for a round temple water container, gives the value of Pi as 3.

Have some more fun with my favorite duo of magicians:
[youtube]8RV46fsmx6E[/youtube]

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:30 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Talya wrote:
Science never pretends to have all the answers, but it's the only reasonable source of whatever answers we do have.

Science doesn't provide answers, ever. When done right, it provides evidence.


...which is still the closest thing to any real "answers" we can get.

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But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:14 am 
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Talya wrote:
Such a viewpoint is better for your self-esteem than anything remotely based on reality, so good for you. Your emotional health is likely more important to you than actually being right. On that note, you should also look into finding Jesus.


You know, I wish you and others here would realize that such posts mean nothing to me. I'd have to care for this to bother me, and I don't. You'd save some typing time if you knew how unimportant such posts are, but if you want to continue down such a totally fruitless path, that's your choice.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:21 am 
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Farther wrote:
Talya wrote:
Such a viewpoint is better for your self-esteem than anything remotely based on reality, so good for you. Your emotional health is likely more important to you than actually being right. On that note, you should also look into finding Jesus.


You know, I wish you and others here would realize that such posts mean nothing to me. I'd have to care for this to bother me, and I don't. You'd save some typing time if you knew how unimportant such posts are, but if you want to continue down such a totally fruitless path, that's your choice.

Taly has to continue screaming that she is right until the room empties and there is no one left to speak against her viewpoints so that she can ultimately claim correctness.

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Last edited by Hopwin on Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:00 am 
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Yes everyone has an individual view of God (or lack therof), based on personal convictions and viewing of other evidentiary sources. Not everyone can be right, and probably everyone is wrong in some way, self included. The question is Are you willing to trust what you believe about God (or lack thereof) enough to stake suffering the consequences about being wrong. I would empathically say yes as undoubtedly would many others.

Also in my belief not all differences of opinion in Christendom are necessarily condemning to hell. I disagree on issues with a lot of people who trust solely in the substitutional atonement of Jesus Christ for their death penalty of sin, but I believe in the end those people will be with God in heaven forever if their profession is true.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:31 am 
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Talya wrote:
Not at all. There are hundreds of major dogma differences between various denominations within Christendom alone. Christianity is just one of several major religions and dozens of others currently existing, thousands and perhaps millions throughout history. Each has at least a slightly different God (many of them major differences) that they use to fill in the gaps with entirely different stories. If you don't accept that they're made up, then you accept that thousands of entirely contradictory and mutually exclusive religious dogmas are all "right." If you believe only one particular one is right, then the vast majority --the rest of them-- are still completely made up bullshit. Unsurprisingly, just like there is no logical or empirical evidence of the existence of God, there is also no logical or empirical way to tell one religion from another as far as possible veracity. They're all equally likely (or unlikely) to be correct. Even for the religious person, there's no way to know, apart from randomly picking whichever one feels best to you and hoping your God both exists, and isn't very picky about people choosing the right version of his religion...


Completely false. Believing that, say Lutherans are right and Catholics wrong about the nature of communion does not in any way mean you think Catholicism is completely made up bullshit. It only means you disagree on one particular point. You're wildly exaggerating the nature of the differences.

Most such doctrines are not "mutually exclusive" and even if two are, that doesn't mean you consider the holder of the other one completely wrong about everything else.

All that is, is admitting we don't have all the answers. Religions are not under any obligation to have 100% perfect knowledge of what they believe in.

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No matter which way you view it, Religion randomly tries to fill in the gaps with bullshit and claims to know the answer. Science alone admits what we don't know and tries to make sense of it all.


False. Again, circular argument. You haven't given any reason it's bullshit except your own claim that it is, just phrased differently. Science doesn't admit what we don't know any more than religion does. Religion does as well, the different beliefs just represent different hypothesis, just like scientists disagree with one another. You're just trying to make it seem like religious differences are somhow problematic, but scientific differences of opinion are perfectly ok. It;s just how you want to view it; reality does not actually support this at all.

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Creation myth filled with impossibilities? 900 year old people? Angels having sex with women and having hybrid giant offspring? A deluge covering the entire earth while millions of discrete species are preserved in a wooden box?


Some of those things are clearly allegorical, some are partially allegorical, and some applied only in very narrow circumstances (a few people allegedly lived for hundreds of years) and have not been disproven at all. You can't use the supernatural nature of the events as an argument against them; that's simply circular argument assuming that the supernatural can't be just because its supernatural.

Quote:
Oh, but we're not limited to Genesis.
-Seven different bible writers wrote that the sky had a solid roof ("Firmament").


Allegory. What's your point? I didn't say there was no allegory involved; rather when we recognize something as allegory that is an improvement in understanding.

Quote:
-It wouldn't be fair to pick on th LSD Trip known as the Revelation to John, widely described as entirely symbolic even before science got involved.


Science can't get involved, and hasn't gotten involved, because its a prediction of the futute and no one knows what it's talking about with any real certainty. It's a great mystery. This does not uspport your position in any way. You can' use the nature of the stories as arguments against them, that's just using your premise as your conclusion.

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-They couldn't even get simple math right. 2 Chronicles 4:2, providing exact measurements for a round temple water container, gives the value of Pi as 3.


It doesn't give a value of Pi at all. Rahter it refers to a tank 10 cubits across (15 feet) and refers to its circumfrance as being 30 cubits (45 feet). This would, if you perform the calcluations exactly, seem to indicate a vlaue for Pi of 3.. except that in some translations it refers to "about 45 feet", and a multiplication of 2PiR by a radius of 7.5 feet does indeed give a result of "about 45". Exact measurements are not the concern of the Bible; its purely descriptive to give the reader an understanding of how big this thing is. Moreover, it doesn't use decimels anywhere.

This is you taking it excessively literally in order to claim it's "wrong". For what purpose exactly does the reader need to know if it was 30 cubits around or 31.4159 cubits? Oh that's right, none. It's just about finding a nitpick because you want to present your personal views as somehow factual.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:47 am 
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In summary, you basically admit they're making it all up.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:02 am 
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Talya wrote:
In summary, you basically admit they're making it all up.


In summary, you're just saying whatever you think makes it sound like you're right.

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