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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:33 pm 
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CNN Article - Jungle Economics

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Primatologists are giving "guerilla marketing" a whole new meaning.

In Indonesia, researchers have watched how long-tail macaques trade for sex. In South Africa, vervet monkeys climbed the ladder of their social group by learning a new trade in apples.

This line of study examines how economic models explain social behavior in the natural world.

"Animals neither negotiate verbally nor conclude binding contracts, but nevertheless regularly exchange goods and services without overt coercion and manage to arrive at agreements over exchange rates," European researchers wrote in a recent paper on market behavior among vervet monkeys in South Africa.

"It's really looking at the economy of nature," said Michael David Gumert, a primatologist and assistant professor in the division of psychology at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore. Gumert spent 20 months in the jungles of Indonesia studying long-tail macaques, observing the mating market among the monkeys.

While the U.S. dollar may be the primary global currency among humans, in the primate world coinage can be best called "The Groom" -- the more time you get being groomed, the richer you are within the monkey social group, researchers have observed.

Gumert found that male monkeys "pay" for sex by grooming female monkeys. After being groomed, females would mate nearly four times an hour with the groomer, and are less likely to mate with others. But the larger the market of male companions, the higher the price of sex: Areas with low density of males, the price was only eight minutes of grooming. In areas where there were more males, the price could double to 16 minutes.

Sex isn't the only commodity for sale in the jungle. Female macaques will line up to groom a new mother in order to hold her offspring, Gumert observed. "When a mother has a baby, the other females are attracted to the baby and want access to it," he said.

The findings support the "biological market theory," a term created by researchers Ronald Noe and Peter Hammerstein in trying to understand reciprocal behavior in primates and the unwritten code of trade that appears in the wild.

"(My colleague) said, 'this looks like a market', and we started investigating in those terms," said Noe, a primate ethologist at the University of Strasbourg.

And like in capital markets, supply and demand rules the jungle. In one recent experiment led by Noe's student, Cecile Fruteau, in South Africa, a low-ranking vervet monkey in the wild was trained to open a box of apples for the group. Instantly, the stock value of the monkey shot up.

"The pattern of grooming she got was like the pattern of a dominant animal," Noe said.

Then the researcher trained another low-ranking monkey the same skill to see what competition would do in the monkey market. And like human markets, the duoply reached a point of equal distribution of grooms.

What fascinates Noe is that without any sort of outward system, there seems to be an innate sense among the group of the value of these new goods and services.

"They make the changes very quickly and seem to have a keen sense of what it is worth," he said.

There may be other forms of currency trading hands that the researchers can't compute -- such as greater tolerance among each other when feeding, or stored knowledge that the improved relationship will come in handy in a fight.

"Grooming is something that is consistent and we can easily measure," said Noe.

Researchers stop short of saying this research has -- so far -- signaled that economics is an innate trait in our closest animal cousins, but it raises thought provoking questions if there is an evolutionary dynamic to the forces that gave rise to Wall Street.

From an evolutionary standpoint, the tacit negotiation that happens in primate groups suggests that the maxim that "only the strong survive" isn't quite right, Gumert said. "It seems really more like, 'only the cooperative survive'."


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:36 pm 
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They need a Union

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In recent tests designed to assess monkeys' sense of fairness, a group of brown capuchin monkeys "went on strike" and refused to perform routine tasks when they saw others receiving greater rewards for the same tasks.

The more effort the primates used to earn a reward, the more upset they appeared to be at the inequity, according to scientists who conducted the research.

"In human terms it doesn't matter how hard you have to work for a million dollars," said lead researcher Sarah Brosnan of Georgia State University in Atlanta.

"But there's a pretty low cutoff point on what you'll do for five."

Building on previous research, Brosnan's team tested six pairs of monkeys on a simple task: handing a token to a human examiner in return for a food reward.

When monkeys noticed that their partners received better rewards for the same task—a cherished grape instead of a bit of cucumber—they became likely to refuse participation, the study showed.

The behavior, called inequity aversion, might have its roots in activities like food gathering, in which primates can suffer if they cooperate with others who do not do their share of work, Brosnan said.

Brosnan stressed that the primates' response wasnt one of simple greed or wanting a bigger payoff just because they knew one was available.

"What really mattered was if someone else got a better reward," she said, "not [just] that they wanted a better reward."

The team's findings appear in the new online version of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences....


Rest of the article is at the Discovery link above.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:38 pm 
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So communism is unnatural?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:40 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Am I doing this right?

If your goal is to have sex with monkeys, I guess.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:49 pm 
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shuyung wrote:
Müs wrote:
Am I doing this right?

If your goal is to have sex with monkeys, I guess.

Would you say no?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:52 pm 
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We're all just monkeys when you really get down to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
So communism is unnatural?


In every animal that thinks and feels independently, yes.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Müs wrote:
We're all just monkeys when you really get down to it.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:28 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So communism is unnatural?


In every animal that thinks and feels independently, yes.


So its perfectly natural for the majority of humans ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
So communism is unnatural?

I don't know, the second article suggests an inherent desire for fairness in the form of equal effort yielding equal reward. In human terms, that could easily translate as a janitor working 40 hours per week feeling entitled to the same pay as a banker working 40 hours per week.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:31 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So communism is unnatural?

I don't know, the second article suggests an inherent desire for fairness in the form of equal effort yielding equal reward. In human terms, that could easily translate as a janitor working 40 hours per week and a banker worker 40 hours per week being entitled to equal pay.


Depends on if the markets responds to them or not.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:34 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Depends on if the markets responds to them or not.

That's more the first article.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:35 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Depends on if the markets responds to them or not.

That's more the first article.


No, I'm drawing inferences after considering both articles.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:38 pm 
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RangerDave wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So communism is unnatural?

I don't know, the second article suggests an inherent desire for fairness in the form of equal effort yielding equal reward. In human terms, that could easily translate as a janitor working 40 hours per week feeling entitled to the same pay as a banker working 40 hours per week.



That would translate as long as you ignored the part about "others receiving greater rewards for the same tasks" and "noticed that their partners received better rewards for the same task".

Of course, people are notoriously short-sighted and self-centered. Rarely does one take into consideration someone else's prior effort put into reaching a level where the they are considered for a position in which the "greater rewards" are possible.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:43 pm 
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I just wanna buy prostitutes for apples.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:57 pm 
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Have hairbrush will mate?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:07 pm 
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What, you never brushed a woman's hai,r or gave her a backrub with the end goal of getting in her pants????


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:08 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So communism is unnatural?


In every animal that thinks and feels independently, yes.


Which is very few, if any, mammals.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:36 pm 
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Arathain Kelvar wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
So communism is unnatural?


In every animal that thinks and feels independently, yes.


Which is very few, if any, mammals.


You are interpreting my words too loosely. Can I make you think something? If I get stabbed will you feel it?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 5:40 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
If I get stabbed will you feel it?


I can't be sure. Please don't get stabbed.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:24 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
What, you never brushed a woman's hai,r or gave her a backrub with the end goal of getting in her pants????

um.. no.

Dinner, perhaps an after dinner drink, then I used to let them get in mine. Much easier that way.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:44 am 
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If you're brushing back hair to get some nookie then you should reconsider your standards.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:55 am 
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What are you talking about? Chim-chim is a pimp. He's swimming in monkey pussy.

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