The Glade 4.0

10 true, 2 false. But with extreme caveats.
10 false, 2 true for the second verison.



1. Abortion should be legal for any reason before fetal viability. * true, but based on defining viability as 'awareness or self sustaining life' - I dont know enough about the biology to know which comes first.

2. Governments should allow marriage between any two consenting adults, regardless of sex. * true, but I dont believe 'marriage' should be something government takes any part in. If you want to tax advance social engineering for 'partnerships' sexuality should not be a part of government policy. Ever.

3. Universal Health Care should be a legal right. * .... Im going to say true in the spirit of the thread, though actually I dont mean it the way it will be interpreted here - as a 'right' in absolute. I believe in a civilised society a strong degree of universal health care should be a high priority of taxation, along with education, defense and law enforcement.


4. Taxation should be progressive, not flat (nor consumption based.) * .... Im going to say 'true', but again I believe it'll be misinterpreted. I think up tot he point the state can provide for the legitimate government functions (which are generally fewer than those governments claim) taxing those who benefit more from the society at a higher rate is reasonable, because of the proportionate impact on their ability to exercise their own will (as a well over 6 figure $ earner, I can easily afford to put a higher portion of my income into tax with only a marginal impact on my lifestyle than a low to mid 5 figure earner can). I think there should bea floor below which 0% tax is imposed. If the floor is high enough, and the states legitimate functions can be funded by a flat tax, I believe that would be preferable to a progressive one - but I do not believe I have seen a society set up like that yet.


5. Church and State should be entirely separate. * absolutely true.

6. Public Education should be a legal right. * see health care. A priority of taxation. And I am not entirely sure I beleive it should be 'universal' - those who can and do work to benefit from it should get it.

7. Ensuring people don't fall through the cracks is more important than Economic Stability. * false. However, that is only because of the 'more important' clause, and I am assuming 'stability' means a general baseline level of prosperity and not a stable plutocracy, for example.

8. Capital Punishment should never be an option - we cannot let government have the ability to execute its citizens. * true, while the ability to determine guilt in absolute certainty is not available.


9. Society and the economy should be planned and structured so as to provide the greatest good to the greatest number. * false, but because fo 'planned and structured' and the implications of central control. I believe the objective of government should be to ensure that outcome in the face of entrenched power bases, however.



10. The free market, left to itself without regulation, is a dangerous thing, and so it needs government oversight. * true, though I suppose you could remove the word 'government'


11. Paying taxes to support those less fortunate than yourself is both moral and your duty as a citizen. * true.


12. People's "right to bear arms" is not absolute, and certain weapons should be restricted by law for the safety of society as a whole. (IE. Elmo's basement Nukes). * true.





1. Abortion should never be legal except for cases where the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother. F
2. Governments should only validate marriage between a man and a woman. F
3. Health Care should only be private, government should stay out of it. F
4. Taxation should be flat. (Or nonexistent) F
5. Church and State are inseparable. F
6. Education should be paid for out of private funds. F
7. Economic stability is more important than ensuring people don't fall through the cracks. T
8. Capital Punishment should be available for the most severe criminal offenses. F
9. Government should not get involved in social or economic planning of any kind. F
10. The free market is the most important freedom we can possess. F
11. Taxation should be limited to what a government needs in order to protect our rights. T, for varying definitions of 'rights'
12. I should legally be able to arm myself with anything i can acquire -- even weapons of mass destruction. F

You assume no delivery system. Also the total annihilation of a large area (including the home) itself isa detterrant against action.

Lets look at Ruby Ridge - even if they didn't have a delivery system - do you think negotiation would be a more a less likely prospect for the government.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville

Less. The government would have to take some action to ensure the nuclear weapon was destroyed or captured so as to prevent harm to others from the explosion and radioactive fallout (which would be considerable since any "no delivery system" detonation means a groundburst).

You cannot legitimately use a nuclear weapon for the purpose you are describing. By the nature of its operation it poses a threat to very large numbers of other people who you have no license whatsoever to harm in the course of "defending yourself" against the government, especially since you may or may not have any good reason to do so in the first place.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

First set:

1. Abortion should be legal for any reason before fetal viability. F
2. Governments should allow marriage between any two consenting adults, regardless of sex. T
3. Universal Health Care should be a legal right. F
4. Taxation should be progressive, not flat (nor consumption based.) F
5. Church and State should be entirely separate. T
6. Public Education should be a legal right. F
7. Ensuring people don't fall through the cracks is more important than Economic Stability. F
8. Capital Punishment should never be an option - we cannot let government have the ability to execute its citizens. T
9. Society and the economy should be planned and structured so as to provide the greatest good to the greatest number. F
10. The free market, left to itself without regulation, is a dangerous thing, and so it needs government oversight. T
11. Paying taxes to support those less fortunate than yourself is both moral and your duty as a citizen. F
12. People's "right to bear arms" is not absolute, and certain weapons should be restricted by law for the safety of society as a whole. (IE. Elmo's basement Nukes). T

Total: 5 true, 7 false

Second set:

1. Abortion should never be legal except for cases where the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother. - T
2. Governments should only validate marriage between a man and a woman. - F
3. Health Care should only be private, government should stay out of it. - T
4. Taxation should be flat. (Or nonexistent) - T
5. Church and State are inseparable. - F
6. Education should be paid for out of private funds. - T
7. Economic stability is more important than ensuring people don't fall through the cracks. - T
8. Capital Punishment should be available for the most severe criminal offenses. - F
9. Government should not get involved in social or economic planning of any kind. - T
10. The free market is the most important freedom we can possess. - F
11. Taxation should be limited to what a government needs in order to protect our rights. - T
12. I should legally be able to arm myself with anything i can acquire -- even weapons of mass destruction. - F

Total: 5 false, 7 true

That said, I have some caveats.

#1, #6: With respect to both education and abortion I don't think this are federal issues in the first place, so they're kind of N/A.

#7: I simply don't understand this question. I don't see how the two things are in conflict, and I don't think government really has any business mucking with either of them, so this is really more of an N/A as far as I'm concerned.

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Sail forth! steer for the deep waters only!
Reckless, O soul, exploring, I with thee, and thou with me;
For we are bound where mariner has not yet dared to go,
And we will risk the ship, ourselves and all.

No, no, and maybe. I can store my firearms however I choose and it will not go off and shoot someone.It is a tool. An inanimate object. It's when someone decides to put their booger hook on the bang switch is when there will be an issue. Just like I should be able to leave my bike on my porch without fear of someone bothering/stealing it, same with my firearms. No "what ifs" about kids and guns and emotional bs commentary.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

He's assuming a lot of things. "Improvised" in this sense is just a term to classify whats being made. It's hardly improvised when you damn well know what you are doing. Or is improvised anything not made by a governments military? Know what, doesn't matter.

Ruby Ridge was a massacre by the Feds who brought greater force than the people who were killed. If the people at Waco or RR had equal or greater force, the Feds would have had to negotiate rather then massacre.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Don't be absurd. "Improvised" means made with things not specifically designed to be used that way and therefore less than optimal in terms of efficiency. Knowing what you're doing doesn't make them not improvised, it means not getting yourself killed int he process.



This is completely silly. First of all criminals should never have more force than the government. No, you can't use any argument that Waco or Ruby Ridge didn't involve criminals because you can't guarnatee that all the time. In fact, you have no way of even remotely guaranteeing that anyone with a nuke would even give a **** about protecting rights against the government - or at least anyone other than themselves.

Second, there is no way that they would ever get "more force" inside that little compound or area because the government will always simply have greater resources. If you get a nuke in there, they can still destroy you and the nuke without you ever knowing the attack is coming, even if they have to use a smaller nuke to do it.

If you have more force than the government, you're really just saying that you're the government. All this wanking off about nukes is just that - fantasizing unrealistically about the government having to "negotiate" with people who were arguably criminals that you happen to like, all the while knowing that in reality you'll never have to deal with the actual threat of someone who really doesn't give a **** about rights at all but simply sees having more power as an avenue to personal gain having a nuke. It's never going to happen, so you guys just make up whatever fantasy scenario you please and pretend like things would actually be just peachy!!

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

By refusing to acknowledge the reality of that position, it provides an apparent consistency in their position without having to admit inconsistency.

Once someone admits they'll compromise for the sake of reality vs. fantasy, folks will call them on their fantasies all the time.

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In time, this too shall pass.

I doubt he read the Ruby Ridge case. If he still sides with authority after they were clearly wrong, well then the discussion is never going to go anywhere.

Nukes are an example, and focusing on the term nuke vs the idea of who gets to determine what force one is allowed to possess is whats silly.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

So you'd be ok with granting every individual on the planet the ability to kill any other person with a thought?


Hypothetically, if anyone could Death Note style kill anyone, but it was illegal to do so, do you REALLY think anyone would be safer than if no one could?

Well consider you need to know their name, write it in the book while picturing their face it's not exactly a deterrent against a masked person you don't know. But to your example, if this was possible, then would you ban folks from facebook since that could be used to kill so easily? How far would it go- no telephone books? No yearbooks? No alumni directories? Hell the real estate agents on shopping carts would drop by the dozen! Would pencils require background checks? In california would pens be prohibited because you can write so many names with them?

Having a weapon does not make you a criminal. It's what you do with the weapon is what determines being a criminal.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

First Set:
1. Abortion should be legal for any reason before fetal viability. T - any reason is ok; F - the cut-off should be earlier than viability
2. Governments should allow marriage between any two consenting adults, regardless of sex. T
3. Universal Health Care should be a legal right. T - yes to universal; F - not a "right," just a policy choice
4. Taxation should be progressive, not flat (nor consumption based.) T - yes to progressive; F - consumption-based is fine
5. Church and State should be entirely separate. T, but I think people get too worked up over little things
6. Public Education should be a legal right. T - yes to universal; F - not a "right," just a policy choice
7. Ensuring people don't fall through the cracks is more important than Economic Stability. F - instability = bigger cracks
8. Capital Punishment should never be an option - we cannot let government have the ability to execute its citizens. T
9. Society and the economy should be planned and structured so as to provide the greatest good to the greatest number. T, subject to limits
10. The free market, left to itself without regulation, is a dangerous thing, and so it needs government oversight. T
11. Paying taxes to support those less fortunate than yourself is both moral and your duty as a citizen. T
12. People's "right to bear arms" is not absolute, and certain weapons should be restricted by law for the safety of society as a whole. T

Second list:
1. Abortion should never be legal except for cases where the pregnancy endangers the life of the mother. F
2. Governments should only validate marriage between a man and a woman. F
3. Health Care should only be private, government should stay out of it. F
4. Taxation should be flat. (Or nonexistent) F
5. Church and State are inseparable. F
6. Education should be paid for out of private funds. F, though people should have that option
7. Economic stability is more important than ensuring people don't fall through the cracks. T
8. Capital Punishment should be available for the most severe criminal offenses. F
9. Government should not get involved in social or economic planning of any kind. F
10. The free market is the most important freedom we can possess. F
11. Taxation should be limited to what a government needs in order to protect our rights. F
12. I should legally be able to arm myself with anything i can acquire -- even weapons of mass destruction. F

Total for First List: 7 True, 4 Split, 1 False

Total for Second List: 1 True, 0 Split, 11 False

I have read the case. "Clearly wrong" is irrelevant. If they had simply surrendered and gone to court, no one would have died. If they'd had a nuclear weapon, the government would have had to strike hard simply to make sure they could not possibly detonate it



Nukes are not just an example because they create different, far more devastating consequences than any other weapon. Attempting to use them has consequences far beyond what any other weapon can achieve. They serve no purpose in trying to protect rights against tyranny because they destroy so much in the process; there is no point in "protecting rights" in an abstract sense if you devastate society in the process - or cause some other country to do it for you because they no longer can be sure they aren't about to be attacked.

There is nothing "silly" about focusing on them. Trying to pretend that there is some reason no one else should be allowed to limit what force you can have when that force could not possibly be used without devastating consequences is what's silly.

The "but you can make the same argument about any weapon!" line is silly; no, you cannot. Any other sort of weapon means that, to resist the government, you must have some meaningful block of consensus among other citizens. Nuclear weapons remove that, essentially allowing anyone that possessed them to become the government in and of themselves. No person should ever be allowed access to weapons that allow them, as an individual, to contest the government that belongs to all of soceity. Anyone who does must be quickly and forcibly relieved of such capability because of the threat they pose to the rights of everyone.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

This does not apply to all weapons. Weapons that give you control over society without being the duly constituted government, or the ability to contest that government without the consensus of fellow citizens, does, and should, make you a criminal.

Trying to pretend that "they're all weapons, some are just more powerful than others!" is the height of childish obstinacy.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

That's a shot at you Elmo!

Bored today Slythe?

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

Not sure why you're apparently offended at such a random silly statement that so many others have made a million times that no one bothers to respond to, but yes, I'm often bored. Your point again?

Your statement wasn't "silly", and it assuredly wasn't random, but I should have known better, it's useless to interact with trolls, they'll go away more quickly if you ignore them. Now we've got to put up with even more uselessness and attempts at pot-stirring form someone who's apparent purpose in showing up here is to do exactly that - or to piously say why they don't post here.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I figure for someone who has a post count of 191, that's pretty random. I thought it was simply an attempt at humor. Are you having a rough day of it, otherwise, Vindi?

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If you count his posts in the past Glade's, it's probably in the thousands.

If I ever start a band, this is what I'm going to name it.

True Story.

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Ezekiel 23:19-20 

^ This, and it was an attempt at humor, probably a pretty poor one. Re-reading it, I can see how it might be taken as trolling, but that's not what I do.



It's not; I really don't post all that often. Regardless, it was a derail, so I'll just say

/rerail