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PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:51 pm 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11711228

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The Large Hadron Collider has successfully created a "mini-Big Bang" by smashing together lead ions instead of protons.

The scientists working at the enormous machine on Franco-Swiss border achieved the unique conditions on 7 November.

The experiment created temperatures a million times hotter than the centre of the Sun.

The LHC is housed in a 27km-long circular tunnel under the French-Swiss border near Geneva.

Up until now, the world's highest-energy particle accelerator - which is run by the European Organization for Nuclear Research (Cern) - has been colliding protons, in a bid to uncover mysteries of the Universe's formation. Proton collisions could help spot the elusive Higgs boson particle and signs of new physical laws, such as a framework called supersymmetry. But for the next four weeks, scientists at the LHC will concentrate on analysing the data obtained from the lead ion collisions.

This way, they hope to learn more about the plasma the Universe was made of a millionth of a second after the Big Bang, 13.7 billion years ago. One of the accelerator's experiments, ALICE, has been specifically designed to smash together lead ions, but the ATLAS and Compact Muon Solenoid (CMS) experiments have also switched to the new mode.

'Strong force'

David Evans from the University of Birmingham, UK, is one of the researchers working at ALICE. He said that the collisions obtained were able to generate the highest temperatures and densities ever produced in an experiment.

"We are thrilled with the achievement," said Dr Evans. "This process took place in a safe, controlled environment, generating incredibly hot and dense sub-atomic fireballs with temperatures of over ten trillion degrees, a million times hotter than the centre of the Sun. "At these temperatures even protons and neutrons, which make up the nuclei of atoms, melt resulting in a hot dense soup of quarks and gluons known as a quark-gluon plasma."

Quarks and gluons are sub-atomic particles - some of the building blocks of matter. In the state known as quark-gluon plasma, they are freed of their attraction to one another. This plasma is believed to have existed just after the Big Bang.

He explained that by studying the plasma, physicists hoped to learn more about the so-called strong force - the force that binds the nuclei of atoms together and that is responsible for 98% of their mass.

After the LHC finishes colliding lead ions, it will go back to smashing together protons once again.


Pretty sweet.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 9:08 am 
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So? An outside force caused particles to react. The particles didn't get put there by themselves nor did they react without the application of outside force.

It's an interesting study into the makeup of elements yeah.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:26 pm 
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I see phrases like "temperatures over ten trillion degrees" and "safe, controlled environment" and my brain eventually gives up and stops trying to make them fit. Unless they've developed some sort of super star trek heat resistant environment that they don't want me to know about, nothing on earth can withstand that amount of heat without melting.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Numbuk wrote:
I see phrases like "temperatures over ten trillion degrees" and "safe, controlled environment" and my brain eventually gives up and stops trying to make them fit. Unless they've developed some sort of super star trek heat resistant environment that they don't want me to know about, nothing on earth can withstand that amount of heat without melting.


If I recall, from what I've read in the past, that temperature is a bit misleading because it only lasts something like a billionth of a second and is contained on a microscopic scale.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Also remember that temperature is in fact only a measure of the average KE of the particles in question. Yeah, they're pumping a lot of energy in, but we're not talking anything even the size of a bullet. Its been a while since I had much to do with a cyclotron of any kind but I'd wager its not anything more than 10^5 particles. (less than 1/(10^18th) of a mole.

Just doing some really sloppy math in my head, that runs to about 10^(-16) the mass of a bullet.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Rorinthas wrote:
So? An outside force caused particles to react. The particles didn't get put there by themselves nor did they react without the application of outside force.


Science does not exist to ascertain the existence (or lack) of a deity. The universe is how it is, and started how it started. Whether "God" initiated and/or directed the big bang, or the formation of primitive life and its evolution, is outside the ability of science to study. We can only study what happened and how it happened, not why they happened, if such a question even matters.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:55 pm 
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I don't think you're getting the point of Rori's comment, Talya. I'll help, because it's a sentiment I share.

At a glance, it seems extremely disingenuous to call this a "mini Big Bang" since the point of the Big Bang was that there weren't particles there to begin with -- before the Big Bang (in the sense that there *was* a before, since the creation of space-time was part of the bargain), there wasn't matter as we know it.

Thus, crashing pieces of matter as we know it together and then declaring that this models the Big Bang is horribly misstated, at best. What it's modelling are the conditions immediately after the Big Bang.

This is a "let's figure out what the first moments of the universe were like" experiment, not a "let's figure out what went on IN the Big Bang" experiment. The latter of which, I agree, is likely impossible for us to perform.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:58 pm 
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Albert Einstein: Science without Religion is lame, religion without science is blind.

But yeah, science is about how things could happen... Not answering metaphysical questions about why they are that way.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:22 pm 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
The latter of which, I agree, is likely impossible for us to perform.

Yuppers, creating the exact conditions for the experiment is impossible.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Taskiss wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
The latter of which, I agree, is likely impossible for us to perform.

Yuppers, creating the exact conditions for the experiment is impossible.


We don't know the original conditions. Therefore, by creating an experiment that shows the immediate results, we are able to gain understanding about what the conditions might have been.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:13 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
The latter of which, I agree, is likely impossible for us to perform.

Yuppers, creating the exact conditions for the experiment is impossible.


We don't know the original conditions. Therefore, by creating an experiment that shows the immediate results, we are able to gain understanding about what the conditions might have been.

The suppositions for the big bang include one moment where space and time don't even exist... then the next moment sees the spontaneous creation of a singularity ... an environment where strong nuclear forces, weak nuclear forces, electromagnetic forces and gravity had not yet become isolated from each other...

Kinda hard to test tube that baby up.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:11 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
The latter of which, I agree, is likely impossible for us to perform.

Yuppers, creating the exact conditions for the experiment is impossible.


We don't know the original conditions. Therefore, by creating an experiment that shows the immediate results, we are able to gain understanding about what the conditions might have been.

Such results would actually tend to (though not outright) disprove, rather than prove, though. Because then it demonstrates that you don't need to have nothing, as it were, to create the Big Bang -- demonstrating that it's not necessary that the Big Bang was the start of the universe. It *may* have been (a many to one kind of thing), but you've made no progress on proving the theory that the Big Bang is what marked the start of the universe.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:32 pm 
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Just because there was a moment of nothingness doesn't require that there was nothing prior to that. And in fact, the fact that there was "nothing" isn't at all a requisite part of the big bang theory. The big bang theory postulates that the universe expanded from an exceptionally dense, high energy state, but it does not encompass how that state formed. Nucleosynthesis from a high energy soup of subatomic particles followed by rapid expansion is what is at the core of the big bang theory, and these collisions in the LHC definitely allow a view into that core.

You have to remember, there is a great deal of support for a collapse/re-expansion type view of the big bang, where a collapse of all the matter in the universe is what immediately precedes the big bang.

So on that theory, exceptionally high energy collisions could shed some light on the process that might precede re-expansion.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:23 am 
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Taskiss wrote:
The suppositions for the big bang include one moment where space and time don't even exist... then the next moment sees the spontaneous creation of a singularity ...


Actually, science hasn't (and really, cannot) do any more than wildly speculate on conditions before expansion, or the origin of the singularity that all mass in the universe originates from. It is entirely possible (though currently, thought to be unlikely) that the universe is like a yo-yo, expanding and contracting in an endless series of big crunches and big bangs.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:38 am 
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Talya wrote:
Taskiss wrote:
The suppositions for the big bang include one moment where space and time don't even exist... then the next moment sees the spontaneous creation of a singularity ...


Actually, science hasn't (and really, cannot) do any more than wildly speculate on conditions before expansion, or the origin of the singularity that all mass in the universe originates from. It is entirely possible (though currently, thought to be unlikely) that the universe is like a yo-yo, expanding and contracting in an endless series of big crunches and big bangs.


Given that singularities form on the collapse of quite large stars... It is a reasonable argument that the collapase of the universe as a whole would indeed yield a singularity.

But yes, we can't prove that.

And again, the big bang theory is just about the expansion, not the period before that. Anything else would require a larger theory that encompassed big bang theory as a portion of it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:34 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:

Given that singularities form on the collapse of quite large stars... It is a reasonable argument that the collapase of the universe as a whole would indeed yield a singularity.


I'm not suggesting that the collapsed universe would form an ultrasupermassive singularity. Of course it would. My "unlikely" comment comes from the observation that universal expansion appears to be accellerating, not slowing down, so the "Big Crunch" becomes far less likely. The universe probably won't contract (which also means it probably didn't do so before, but that's just educated speculation)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:46 am 
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I gotta say thats a lot of juice to move to whole (and rather chock full of neutron and protons) atoms to significant fractions of C.

I am impressed. I don't ever expect science to be reported accurately by the same people who fled away from science courses in college.

Yeah its hot, its also incredibly tiny.

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