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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:25 pm 
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/1 ... tml?hpt=C1

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Itan Wali, Pakistan (CNN) -- In this village in Pakistan's Punjab province a tearful 12-year-old girl ponders if the Pakistani government will soon hang her mother.
"Whenever I see her picture I cry," Isham Masih told CNN. "I want my mother back. That's what I'm praying for."
This month a Pakistani court sentenced Isham's mother, 45-year-old Asia Bibi, to death, not because she killed, injured or stole, but simply because she said something.
Prosecutors say Bibi, who is a Christian, broke Pakistan's strict blasphemy law by insulting Islam and the prophet Muhammad, a crime punishable by death or life imprisonment according to Pakistan's penal code.
Prosecutor defends blasphemy law
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Pakistan
The alleged incident happened in June 2009 when Bibi, a field worker, was picking fruit in a village two hours west of Lahore. Prosecutors say when Bibi dipped her cup into a bucket of drinking water during a lunch break, her co-workers complained the water had been contaminated by a non-Muslim.
Court records show the women got into a heated argument.
Mafia Satar said she was there and heard Bibi's insults.
"She said your Muhammad had worms in his mouth before he died," Satar told CNN, a crude way of saying Muhammad was no prophet.
The town cleric, Qari Muhammad Salim, reported the incident to police who arrested Bibi. After nearly 15 months in prison came her conviction and the death sentence.
"When I heard the decision my heart ached," Bibi's husband Ashiq Masih told CNN.
Masih denies his wife ever insulted Muhammad. He said death threats forced him and his daughters, one of them disabled, to flee their village.
Neither the Koran nor the prophet Muhammad's teachings in the Hadith call for the execution of blasphemers, but Islamic scholars and jurists from generations past included the death sentence when drafting Islamic law.
Human rights groups have long blamed Pakistan's blasphemy laws for persecution and violence against religious minorities like last year's attack on a Christian village in Punjab Province and recent bombings of minority Muslim mosques.
Activists say the government has refused to amend the law for fear of backlash from Islamist groups and their followers who deem scrapping the law as un-Islamic.
At the time this report was filed, Pakistan's law minister had not responded to CNN's request for an interview.
Bibi has appealed her death sentence and asked for bail, the chief prosecutor of Punjab province told CNN.
The prosecutor, Chaudhry Muhammad Jahangir, said the appeal will be heard by the Lahore High court and a decision could be months away.
Pakistan has never executed someone convicted of blasphemy but in Bibi's village public opinion was unanimous.
"Yes, she should be hanged," a group of villagers cried out.
The town cleric, who made the initial complaint against Bibi, called her death sentence one of the happiest moments of his life.
"Tears of joy poured from my eyes," Qari Salim told CNN.
The clerics tears are in stark contrast to those shed by Bibi's daughter Isham, who wants her mother to live.


Wow, it's like their whole village is filled with members of the Westboro Baptist Church. Obviously all these Muslims are "extremists", and a true Muslim would never call for her death. :roll:

Next time someone ever claims it is a religion of peace or something similar, I will link to this article.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:49 pm 
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I am sure American Liberals have a better understanding of Islam then those who practice it, there for this entire country of muslims is in error, and extremists who have bastardized their religion. Now sleep comfortably as it is a tiny minority of extremists and not a country with a nuclear arsenal.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:55 pm 
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Pure evil.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:56 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
I am sure American Liberals have a better understanding of Islam then those who practice it, there for this entire country of muslims is in error, and extremists who have bastardized their religion. Now sleep comfortably as it is a tiny minority of extremists and not a country with a nuclear arsenal.


Clearly the tiny minority of extremists oppress everyone else in the country and make them follow this legal system.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:23 pm 
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Perhaps now you understand why our forefathers believed that freedom of speech was so important that it rated being the first amendment to the Constitution.

Perhaps now you understand why the separation of Church and State is important.

If we did not have those two things as tenets in our laws, this type of horror would still be happening here. If you think it wouldn't, that we are more civilized than that, in my humble opinion, you are dangerously naive and very wrong.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Perhaps now you understand why our forefathers believed that freedom of speech was so important that it rated being the first amendment to the Constitution.

Perhaps now you understand why the separation of Church and State is important.

If we did not have those two things as tenets in our laws, this type of horror would still be happening here. If you think it wouldn't, that we are more civilized than that, in my humble opinion, you are dangerously naive and very wrong.


I think everyone here already understood that, and while I agree with your basic point, you're rather overstating it.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:26 pm 
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While I admire your support of the Constitution, "here", Micheal, is a misnomer. "Here", as such, didn't exist until the 18th century. I'm not aware of any such thing occurring "here".

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:31 pm 
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Also the people of Pakistan would not stand for something like the Constitution. The idea of separating Church and State is very controversial, if not outrageous to most of them.

We would not have the Constitution unless people supported it. If we got rid of the Constitution today, I don't think things would change much. It's a mainly a difference in culture. The flags of many Western European countries still have the cross on it and yet they don't kill people for saying something blasphemous.

edit:

Also IIRC, the Koran specifies that the religion should be instituted into the State. So you cannot be a true Muslim unless you advocate your government having Muslim laws.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:11 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:

We would not have the Constitution unless people supported it. If we got rid of the Constitution today, I don't think things would change much.


You highly overestimate people

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:43 pm 
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Uncle Fester wrote:
I am sure American Liberals have a better understanding of Islam then those who practice it, there for this entire country of muslims is in error, and extremists who have bastardized their religion. Now sleep comfortably as it is a tiny minority of extremists and not a country with a nuclear arsenal.


Well I'm certainly sure that I have a better understanding of Islam than you do if you're going to lump all people who follow it in this group. It's like saying that all Christians have exactly the same beliefs.

That said, it is nothing short of horrifying to me that in this day and age, there is still this kind of mindless brutality going on.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:48 pm 
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Aizle wrote:
Uncle Fester wrote:
I am sure American Liberals have a better understanding of Islam then those who practice it, there for this entire country of muslims is in error, and extremists who have bastardized their religion. Now sleep comfortably as it is a tiny minority of extremists and not a country with a nuclear arsenal.


Well I'm certainly sure that I have a better understanding of Islam than you do if you're going to lump all people who follow it in this group. It's like saying that all Christians have exactly the same beliefs.

That said, it is nothing short of horrifying to me that in this day and age, there is still this kind of mindless brutality going on.


When you lump enough Muslims together, you get a country that infringes on human rights. Sure they might not have the same beliefs individually, but when you aggregate them together you get this.


Last edited by Lex Luthor on Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
When you lump enough Muslims together, you get a country that infringes on human rights (by Western standards, perhaps not by Medieval standards).



As disgusting as it is, such things happen in any culture where religion has too much influence or power. Christendom was no better a few centuries ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:05 am 
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Talya,

You have a good point. Surprisingly, in the U.K. it was more recent than centuries ago. 1922 was the last case for blasphemy. I think the problem is when people have a serious "these moral rules should apply to everyone" attitude towards religion, as opposed to just celebratory and tradition.

When you think about it, everyone is just a child who's been around a while. Sometimes I imagine people I interact with as children running around a playground. If a group of kids hurt me because I said God's name in vain, well that's just messed up.

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"The last man to be sent to prison for blasphemy was John William Gott. In 1922 he was sentenced to nine months hard labour for comparing Jesus with a circus clown. In Scotland, there has not been a public prosecution since 1843"3. The 1843 prosecution was when bookseller Thomas Paterson was sentenced at Edinburgh High Court to 15 months in prison for selling blasphemous books4.


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The legal system of England was once ruled by the Christian Church; much of "ecclesiastical law" influenced common law. "The offence of blasphemy was originally part of ecclesiastical law. In the seventeenth century, blasphemy was declared a common law offence by the Court of the King's Bench[...]. From the 16th century to the mid 19th century, blasphemy against the Christian religion was held as an offence against common law. [It was used to] to persecute atheists, Unitarians, and others"4. It used to cover all Christian denominations but in an 1838 case it was restricted to protect the "tenets and beliefs of the Church of England"3. This is because the Church of England became the established denomination of the English government, and they tolerated no other forms of Christianity and did not want to protect them.

It was used to persecute the publication of anything that questioned Christian beliefs or the Christian religion. It was an offence to question the Holy Trinity or to question that the Christian Bible was the word of God. Strict and fundamentalist Muslim countries in the present day have the same attitude towards blasphemy of their prophet Muhammad as Christians once did in Europe.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:20 am 
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Meh who cares what happens there? Let the UN not deal with it. Then they can just Darfur it all up while not dealing with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:54 am 
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Hannibal wrote:
Meh who cares what happens there? Let the UN not deal with it. Then they can just Darfur it all up while not dealing with it.


Well, on the one hand, yeah. Injustices occur every day by the thousand, and there are 7 billion people on this earth. We can't get worked up over every one of them or we'd drive ourselves mad.

On the other hand, this is an innocent mother who is being executed out of religious intolerance. It's pretty terrible. For reasons mentioned above, I don't want to think about it much, but to say "who cares" sounds pretty calloused (and I'm sure you didn't mean it to sound that way.)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:12 pm 
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Well according to the laws of the area, she's guilty and this is the punishment. Their country, their rules. And honestly, who here cares beyond gut reaction indigination? She gets stoned, and will be forgotten in 3 days. I'm just ahead of the don't care curve.

Its a case of "wow that sucks, someone should do something" but the UN, who should be on this, won't.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:23 pm 
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They're more interested in trying the U.S.

You have to understand, most of the nations in the U.N. are totalitarian dictatorships. They don't really want to do anything about actual "crimes against humanity."

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Plus we have to be culturally sensitive.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Lex

You're entirely correct. That's one of the many reasons our founders' ancestors left the country of England and later generations gave them the boot altogether. Doesn't mean the Muslims should get a pass either.

I don't know what can be done about the individual. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be aware of what's going on.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:58 pm 
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You know, a lot of these countries were better off as European-controlled territories. It's not right for these people to set up their own governments, because of all the shitty laws they make. Unfortunately it's too costly to get rid of them - just look at our situation with Afghanistan and the Taliban. I think eventually we'll have to drag them all, kicking and screaming, into the 21st century (or maybe 22nd). These religious nut-cases don't deserve political representation.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:06 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
You know, a lot of these countries were better off as European-controlled territories. It's not right for these people to set up their own governments, because of all the shitty laws they make.



Heheheheheheh.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:31 pm 
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I don't think that will work. Moderate Muslims (if such exist) need to rise up like Christans did with the Reformation and at other times. Turkey is an example of heading in the right direction, even if they haven't arrived yet.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Lex Luthor wrote:
You know, a lot of these countries were better off as European-controlled territories. It's not right for these people to set up their own governments, because of all the shitty laws they make.


I'm sure there have been quite a few British Parliamentarians who have said the same things over the past couple of centuries.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Looks like this might have a happy ending.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/1 ... tml?hpt=T2

Quote:
Official: Pakistani Christian woman falsely accused of blasphemy
From Reza Sayah, CNN November 22, 2010 3:50 p.m. EST

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- A preliminary investigation shows that a Pakistani Christian woman has been falsely accused of insulting the Prophet Mohammed, a government official said Monday.

"The president asked me to investigate her case and my preliminary findings show she is innocent and the charges against her are baseless," Pakistani Minister for Minority Affairs Shahbaz Bhatti told CNN.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:36 pm 
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Wow, it's not that she shouldn't be killed for her blasphemy, it's that she didn't commit blasphemy. Image

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