The Glade 4.0

The thing that is so stupid about this thread, is that I have absolutely positively NO doubt that if Obama were a conservative republican, Monty would be on the exact opposite side of this discussion.

The really stupid thing about this whole issue is that Obama could end the whole thing with about 3 minutes of effort.

I have no doubt that he's eligible, which would make this whole thing even dumber.

That's because, as I pointed out in another thread, there is no difference between liberals and conservatives in American politics.

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Buckle your pants or they might fall down.

You owe me one monitor screen cleaning!

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"If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come sit next to me." - Alice R. Longworth

"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun." - Ash Williams

The responses posted when McCain's eligibility was questioned lead me to the same conclusion.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I just want to point this post out to Stathol. Stathol, if you ever wonder why I might ascribe thoughts or motives you may or may not have, posts like this and some below it are why. It is perfectly acceptable and *not* considered inflammatory or flaming to do so on the board.

I would prefer we not do so, but I have been told there is nothing wrong with it, according to the moderator staff. So be it.

To answer this -

*IF* credible evidence could be shown of a fraud, then I would fully support an investigation no matter *what* politician was in office. Liberal, conservative, democrat or republican. It does not matter to me. Fraud is fraud.

There is no evidence that such a fraud has been committed. There is no credible evidence that says Barak Obama was not born in the USA. There is a mountain of credible evidence that proves he was born where he says (and his birth certificate says) he was born.

You don't get to arbitrarily decide what document *counts*. He has a birth certificate, it's been seen, confirmed, and handled. There is no doubt that he's a citizen.

And that's the point you guys *continue* to ignore. THERE IS NO QUESTION IF THERE IS NO CASE. I put that in caps for emphasis, The two are linked, and you can't just seperate them. If you agree that there is no credible evidence that shows the President was born in Kenya, or that he's not a natural born citizen, then you must conclude that these cases *should* be thrown out, accordig to the way our system of law works. In order for this question about challenging eligibility to come to the courts, there needs to be an actual case. Barak Obama has rights, too, you know. He has a right to privacy in regards to his birth records, and he has a right to due process. He also enjoys the same protections, including burden of proof, that any other citizen enjoys. He also enjoys the right to the same exact legal process any other person would enjoy when it comes to not having to answer every asinine, frivolous lawsuit that is levied against him.

If these plaintiffs could prove standing, then they can move forward. Until they do that, tough ****. Get a better case. Or better yet, stop wasting the courts time with such insanity.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

This is the part you are Consistently getting wrong, Birth records are Public just as Marriage, and Death records.
There's a reason for that.
Give me your name and state you were born in and I can order a copy of your birth certificate. And I'll bet you with just a little research I can locate and order the long form of it. Now I won't be able to get them with a certification seal as I have no legal uses for a certified copy. The only reason if asked I would have give is I'm doing research on your families genealogy.

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History of the Condom
In 1272, the Muslim Arabs invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine.
In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea, by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

Not in the state of Hawaii. State Privacy laws prevent Hawii from releasing the records.

Khross - you are correct. His records were not destroyed. Thank you. This statement -

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No the records weren't destroyed as they state on there website they have records back to 1896 on microfiche. They not private records then be be accessed for a variety of reasons. The Hawaii DOH web site states who can order certified copies and in another part the discuss who can have non certified copies.

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History of the Condom
In 1272, the Muslim Arabs invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine.
In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea, by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

That's what I just said, Leshani. Khross is correct, they were not destroyed. The head of Hawaii's Department of Health has seen the original vital records maintained there.

Are you ready to abandon the conspiracy theories yet?

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

The theory doesn't matter to me, I just looked into when It came up on here, and only slightly interested in how it will all play out in the end.
I have a gut feeling that with the massive and growing divide in this country Obama's Presidency could very well end on a completely different note.

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History of the Condom
In 1272, the Muslim Arabs invented the condom, using a goat's lower intestine.
In 1873, the British somewhat refined the idea, by taking the intestine out of the goat first.

I would like to make a prediction or two...

If it is proven that Obama is eligible (as expected) then anyone who admits that they are satisfied with this decision will be summarily dismissed in any conversation afterwards as a birther conspiracy theorist... regardless of the questions of constitutional law.

And if Obama is found to be ineligible and removed from office, it is the conservatives in the country who are responsible.

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Darksiege
Traveller, Calé, Whisperer
Lead me not into temptation; for I know a shortcut

Except for relatives and officials from Africa and the absence of a birth certificate, as I understand it.



Correct, insofar as a large amount of evidence so exists. False, insofar as no birth certificate has been presented, as I understand it.



Nor do you.



Not by the courts, which are what matters.



Proof by assertion is a logical fallacy.



It appears the Federal courts located in Texas have determined standing exists.

Therefore, in your own words: tough ****.

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“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

I'm interested in how the courts are going to handle this. Really, I will never understand why Obama has drug his feet through this whole process. My feeling is that the [s] community organizer[/s] egomaniac in him revels in the publicity and poo-stirring this creates.

However- there can be a few realistic outcomes for this:

Obama provides the document requested. One side gets to say "See told ya" and the other gets to say "Why did you wait so long?"
Obama fails to provide the document requested. One side gets to say "See told ya" and the other gets to wear the conspiricy tin foil hats.
Obama provides a copy of the document requested. Mulligan. Settles the legal nuances if accepted, does not settle the conspiricy nuts.
Obama refuses to provide the document requested for X reason. This is the one I think will happen. I think Obama will claim "Exeuctive Privilege" and leave the case in unresolved limbo for the remainder of his term, or just outright say the courts cannot order him to provide it. I do feel he is that arrogant. The courts can rule till the cows come home, noone is going to cowboy up and try to put handcuffs on the President. The rift will get wider. Remember, Obama has stated he would rather pass his agenda then get reelected.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

The story about his relatives saying he was born in kenya has long since been debunked. Furthermore, if you bothered to read the thrad, you would have seen the quote from head of the Hawaii Department of Health, who has personally seen and vouches for the original vital records of Obama's birth. Are you ready to entirely abandon the conspiracy theory now?



Is the head of the Hawaii Department of Health lying?



I'm not. There is a certificate of live birth that has been shown to the public, and the head of the Hawaii dpt. of Health has seen and vouched for the originals.



Set that bar a little higher next time.

Is the head of the Hawaii Dpt. of Health lying?




That isn't what I have done. The proof is right there in front of you. You can see a legitimate copy of his birth certificate on line, and the original has been seen and vouched for by the State of Hawaii.



That may be true. That may not be true. We shall see.



That was very helpful to the conversation, DFK.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

I see that the difference between "This is a constitutional issue of who has standing and whether challenges to the legitimacy of a President must be answered" and "ZOMG Obama was actually born in Kenya!" is still too much to grasp.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Because the question is based on your latter quote. The *reason* these cases are being brought up is because a group of people believe that the President is not a natural born citizen of the US. That question, and the constutional question, are inherently linked. If the President is a Natural born Citizen (he is), then there is no constitutional question. The only reason such a question would come up is if there were some kind of fraud committed.

Roe V Wade would never have happened if it were not for the actual case that brought the question forth. You don't just go to court to ask constitutional questions. Brown V Board was based on an actual occurance.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

No, there is a constituitional question regardless of whether he's a natural citizen or not. The issue is that he needs to validate that; he cannot simply avoid challenges based on "well, no one actually ahs standing to challenge based on that clause, so I don't have to worry about it."

The constitutional issue is not "what are we going to do if Obama was born in Kenya?". It's wildly unlikely that he was not born in the U.S. IT's the issue of whether he can simply ignore that challenge. If this were George Bush or John McCain liberals would be all up in arms over "trampling the Constitution" no matter how absurd the charge.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

Anybody ever see those bumper stickers that say "Annoy a Conservative: Defend the Constitution." I find the irony of that applicable to this thread.

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The Dude abides.

He has already validated it.



The constitutional question is moot. He is a natural born citizen. If someone has evidence that a fraud has been committed in regards to his citizenship, then they need to follow the due process of law. However, the proof is *not* his burden to bear. He is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

You, and those of you who believe this is some sort of legitimate constitutional question, are trying to make a massive shift in the way the law works in this country. Just because a person levels a wild accusation does not mean there is suddenly a burden of evidence on the person who they accused. In other words, if someone stood up and shouted that obama was a wife beater, that person would need to present actual evidence. You and those of you making these arguments would say, in that case, that it would be on Obama's shoulder's to prove he was not a wife beater. You are demanding that he prove that he was not born in Kenya. Not only are you doing that, but the people who are pushing these laws suits keep raising the bar as to what constitutes satisfactory evidence. THey asked for a birth certificate, and he produced it. They tried to lie and claim it was a fake, and when *that* failed, they said the birth certificate he produced wasn't good enough. Now the Hawaii Dept of Health have confirmed his Vital records, and that he is a natural born citizen of the US. And *still* you think there is some sort of legitimate case here.

He has already proven that he was born in this country. He has presented a short form birth certificate, and the Hawaii Health Department has confirmed the existence of his long form birth certificate. You don't get to demand that he produce something that Hawaii state laws says is private. You just don't.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Conservatives are the ones ignoring the key component of our criminal justice system, namely the burden of proof. They are demanding that Obama prove he was not born in Kenya simply because someone said he was, despite all the proof to the contrary. As quick as some conservatives are to valiantly defend people like Rush Limbaugh from what they call libel, I'm amazed they aren't lambasting these efforts.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Obama isn't charged with a crime, and no one is demanding he prove he wasn't born anywhere. They're demanding that he establish that he was born in the U.S. Proving one is qualified to hold office is not the same as defending against a crime.

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"Hysterical children shrieking about right-wing anything need to go sit in the corner and be quiet while the adults are talking."

He has already done so. He was born in Hawaii. He has a birth certificate, a SS number, and Identification.

You, and those defending this rediculous "question" want to shift the burden of proof on to Obama to show he has not comitted fraud. That's not how it works.

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It feels like all the people who want limited government really just want government limited to Republicans.
---The Daily Show

Interesting thought, if he had foreknowledge that he was born in Kenya (hypothetically) and ran for President, was elected and was sworn in knowing he wasn't eligible, is that a crime?

Is it fraud?

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones

Monte you want to sweep away our legal system because this case embaresses the President.

Where in the Constitution is that power?

And no Monte he hasn't proved it yet to the courts.

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"...but there exists also in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to attempt to lower the powerful to their own level and reduces men to prefer equality in slavery to inequality with freedom." - De Tocqueville