The Glade 4.0

Then you lose to lack of resources.

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

That's not true, since the sun is providing continual energy to us.

That certainly is debatable. There a plenty of "bad" people who have the life they want and are happy in their own way. Your vision of what "good" is may not jive with with someone else.

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"It is true that democracy undermines freedom when voters believe they can live off of others' productivity, when they modify the commandment: 'Thou shalt not steal, except by majority vote.' The politics of plunder is no doubt destructive of both morality and the division of labor."

I can't speak for them. I can only speak for myself. As I am sure that Aizle was speaking for himself.

And "bad" isn't limited to people that don't believe in a religion.

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Holy shitsnacks!

****

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

I've got to go take a shower and do some stuff. I'll be back in a couple of hours...ya'll behave and try not to ruin my thread while I'm gone...I know how *we* get carried away when we talk about religion.
I'm just genuinely curious and still have some more questions to ask when I get back.
Thanks.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

Ok mom /tease

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Holy shitsnacks!

Good boy.

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"Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Jesus of Nazareth

Correct, and really we're starting to blend in morality into the equation which is it's own can of worms. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that ones basic morality is in place by age 5, so it's really down to the early socialization and indoctrination that is provided by one's parents or guardians that determines what one thinks is "good" or "bad".

For me, it's that doing most of the classically "bad" things leave me feeling bad about myself, and doing the classically "good" things makes me feel good about myself. I really view it as enlightened self interest. It's been called lots of other things over the years. The Golden Rule, Pay it Forward, etc.

So when more people are living longer, how will they be fed, sheltered and clothed?

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A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. ~ John Stuart Mill

Dealing with grief is generally universal. The only difference we're talking about here is when you get to "acceptance". It's God's plan, or **** happens, or whatever is your rationale for acceptance.

Let's assume, even for the religious, that God doesn't exist.

Even in the event that God doesn't exist, faith obviously still provides some level of comfort. But narcotics also provide comfort. There's a reason religion has been called an "opiate." If religion is simply anachronistic superstition and wishful thinking, then you are allowing yourself to be comforted by a lie, much like one can turn to alcohol or drugs for some semblance of comfort. But if God doesn't exist, then its an artificial comfort.

The fact that the "atheist" doesn't need such comfort to live a life just as productive and psychologically healthy as a religious person just means that people don't need the crutch of believing in the eternal.

My question is, if we truly believe in an afterlife, (let's now assume God DOES exist) why do we still grieve? If your loved ones are still alive somewhere and in a better place, if you will see them again in a paradise, doesn't grieving become an irrelevant process? Rejoice!

Only you don't. Because, true or not, we live in this world, not whatever might comes next, and all our emotions and perceptions are based on what we experience here. We hurt now. We feel the loss now. This is the same regardless of one's belief (or lack thereof) in a hereafter...we are creatures of our own mortal lifespans. Eternity is too abstract a concept for us to really absorb. In the end, any such comfort those beliefs provide in the now, even if they are completely true, are no more effective than Ibuprofen for a spike through the gut.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
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Grieving isn't for the dead, it's for the living; it's selfish.

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"Dress cops up as soldiers, give them military equipment, train them in military tactics, tell them they’re fighting a ‘war,’ and the consequences are predictable." —Radley Balko

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Holy shitsnacks!

Little late to the thread, but I was browsing through and wanted to comment on this specifically



I don't mean to sound harsh here, but my immediate thought was, "Why do you need the threat of a higher power and eternal punishment to be a good person?"

Being a productive member of society, having friends and loved ones are rewards in themselves. I don't need the flames of hell underneath me to appreciate that. I don't need to know that I'm going to spend an eternity with them in heaven to love them, either. I love them as much as I can while we're all here together, and if we part ways after death, so be it.

I actually feel like my failing belief in a higher power has made me appreciate my family even more, knowing they wont be around forever.

I just worry that this is the reason there is so much.... distrust... of athiest. People of faith seem convinced that its not possible to be a good person without the proverbial gun to the head so they don't believe an athiest can be moral.

Do you really think that the religious are only "good" out of fear? Do you think they think that of themselves? If not, why should they think atheist would need a gun to their heads?

It's inevitable that some of them are, but let's not generalize and group everyone together.

Not everyone. I shouldn't have generalized but even LK raised the issue and I've heard it before that so-and-so wont vote for X person because they're not a Christian because they can't be a moral person.

That may be a bit different from being a "good" person. For example, if I want to live in a world where all things are Christian, I'd vote for a Christian - they're more likely to share my values, morals, and beliefs. It doesn't mean the opposing candidate is a bad person, it means that my candidate is more likely to represent what I want.

It's no different than voting for a liberal. They're more likely to agree with you if you are a liberal.

I guess my question with why aethist's are "good" is that "bad" usually pays more, has more benefits, is easier, etc, etc. So if you don't fear a higher power why struggle against the temptation?

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Bad goes against your comfort zone too much so it has a very high cost. I don't litter for this reason, even when nobody is looking. It's uncomfortable.

The irony of this, is our human mindset against littering is entirely selfish and not with the environment in mind at all.

Much like a tall pile of snow left by a snowplow will exist long into spring after all the other snow has melted, landfills are terrible for getting rid of garbage. Deprived of oxygen under the weight of other garbage and sheltered from the elements, our junk doesn't biodegrade in a landfill. It sits there, unchanged, for many times longer than it would if we'd simply tossed it at the side of the road. But we don't like people who litter. Why? It's not because they're hurting the environment...no they're probably hurting it less than us consciencious people who use trashcans. It's because we like the earth to at least LOOK clean. So long as we don't see the junk, we're happy. Our yards are pristine, our boulevards clean, and the landfill is out of sight and NIMBY, so it's out of mind.

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Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me
█ ♣ █

Clearly it does not go against everyone's comfort-zone though or bad would never happen. Or to carry your example forward, people do litter. Does that mean that some people are inherently good while others bad (whether due to nature or nuture cause I don't want to start that fight)?

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It is inaccurate to think all atheists would react in a set or similar manner. I've known several over the years who chose quite different paths in the face of death. Some fought it tooth and nail to the very end, enduring all the suffering and yelling in the face of people who tried to save them before it was too late. Some all of a sudden found God/religion, and a couple chose to check out at the time of their choice rather than endure all the pain.

Atheists are people too, and just as diverse as the rest of us. There is no atheist's bible telling them how to live their lives, and if there were, most of them would deride it as one man's fantasy.

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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. B. Franklin

"A mind needs books like a sword needs a whetstone." -- Tyrion Lannister, A Game of Thrones